Wizard AOE...Help me understand

[Lansolyn]

Hello Everyone,

I'm a long time D&D player and I'm excited to get into 4e. I have been playing a few combat tests with my friends and I'm playing a wizard. They're great and I'm excited about the ability to really change the structure of the battlefield. There is a problem that I'm noticing, however.

My group is primarilly melee combatants (yey defenders!) but my areas are so large and persistant that I find it difficult to place the area in such a way that it hits and impacts the enemies without becoming a burden on my friends. Don't get me wrong, I'm not above placing a cloud over our fighter for a round or two...but I have noticed that when I place a controlling effect in a large area one of several things begins to happen...

1. The monsters leave the cloud to engage our fighters {e} The spell has limited effect.
2. I move the effect (if it's a cloud, etc.). {e} monsters slide to avoid or they slide our players into the effect zone.
3. The monsters back out of the cloud and create a situation that I need to dismiss the zone in order to target those creatures. {e} Again, the spell has limitted effect.

Is the limitted effect situation intended? If it is intended then I'm ok with that it will just limit the powers that I chose (so that I chose powers that I can easilly dismiss).

I know that there are high level feats that change the area of effect (archmage abilities) but I think that we'll be playing mostly in the heroic teir.

So, are there powers/feats that I'm missing that will enable you to better control the area that your spells create? Any opinions would be most appreciatve.

Lans

 

[On Puget Sound]

Large and persistent area effects are one tool in your toolbox, and you should keep some of them. But you will also need other tools, depending on the situation. Ideally you should have a close (burst or blast) and a ranged (single target or blast 1) as at wills, and with a bit of cooperation from your allies you should always be able to use one of those effectively, if the situation doesn't allow for one of your big effects.

A broader issue is what's happening on the battlefield. If your allies are getting slid around all over the place while the monsters can freely waltz out of your spells without getting slowed, stunned, dazed, blinded, knocked down, opportunity attacked or at least forced into flanked positions, you may not have enough cooperation going on.

If, on the other hand. all of the monsters' choices are bad (stand here and take fire damage, or move and get OA'd) then you are doing your job even if the monsters' choice is usually to get out of your spell and take the consequences the rest of the team delivers.

 

[kerbarian]

Wizard dailies, more than just about any other powers in the game, do have the ability to change the battlefield. But they usually won't defeat anything by themselves. They need to be combined with other powers and usually other characters' actions for full effect.

If you just cast Stinking Cloud and try to chase enemies around with it, you'll do a fair amount of damage, but it's a clumsy tool, and the monsters will be able to avoid it to some degree, as you've seen.

For full effect, you might try things like:

Cast Icy Rays to immobilize two enemies, then use an action point to cast Stinking Cloud on them, so they'll be stuck in it for at least two rounds. Or have your allies use immobilizing powers on enemies before you drop the cloud on them.

After the enemies move out of the cloud, instead of moving the cloud back on top of them, move it right behind them and then use Thunderwave to knock them away from your melee buddies and into the cloud -- they'll take damage for entering it and then again at the starts of their turns.

You can also position the cloud so your melee buddies can knock enemies into it for the same effect, with powers like Tide of Iron, Thundertusk Boar Strike, Positioning Strike, etc.

If enemies are backing out of the cloud... let them. If you can split up the enemy force and only fight half at a time, that's a great use of a daily spell, even if it doesn't do any damage. Also note that you can use area powers like Scorching Burst without penalty on creatures you can't see, since concealment (even total) doesn't help against bursts. If you don't have line of sight to creatures, you still know which squares they're in, unless they're also hiding from you (check out the new rules for "Targeting What You Can't See" at the end of the PHB2 if you haven't already).

If the entire enemy force is going to hide on the other side of the cloud and run away faster than you can chase them with the cloud... then maybe that's not a good encounter in which to use Stinking Cloud. Not every daily power will be effective in every encounter. You also mentioned enemies that could slide each other and your party around a lot. Most monsters can't do that -- when you're fighting ones that can, that's another time when it's probably not a great encounter for Stinking Cloud.

Overall, I'd say that the way to make large area powers work isn't by trying to find feats that can reshape the area (though those are great when you can get them), but rather by working with your allies to move yourselves and the enemies around in a way that fits them into the area. Also, don't expect that a large area means that you should always hit lots of enemies with it. Sometimes a large area just means that it's easier to hit two enemies with the power, since they don't have to be standing as close to each other.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I'm a long time D&D player and I'm excited to get into 4e. I have been playing a few combat tests with my friends and I'm playing a wizard. They're great and I'm excited about the ability to really change the structure of the battlefield. There is a problem that I'm noticing, however.

My group is primarilly melee combatants (yey defenders!) but my areas are so large and persistant that I find it difficult to place the area in such a way that it hits and impacts the enemies without becoming a burden on my friends.

Yeah, that's aproblem that's nearly unique to the Wizard in 4e - even other 'Controllers' have more AEs that are selective than non-selective.

It's not an insurmountable problem, though, and it does capture the classic flavor of the magic-user.

One thing to keep in mind is the difference between daily, encounter, and at-will powers.

Dailies you want to pull out only when they'd be just about perfect for the situation, or the situation is desperate (or you know it's the last encounter of the day). You only get to use a given daily in one of several encounters, so it's good to use it advisedly. If you're facing foes that have forced-movement powers, creating a zone may not be the best thing. OTOH, if you're facing ranged opponents holding a terrain advantage, a zone (especially one that blocks LOS /and/ inflicts damage) can be extremely useful.

Encounter powers, OTOH, you want to use in just about every encounter, as soon as you see a chance to make decent use of them. Not many encounter powers create zones, and they don't last long, so it's mainly a matter of target selection. Try not to catch your allies in areas, and toss an AE any time there's a shot at decent sized group of enemies.

At-Wills are your back up, you only use them when there's not a good encounter or ideal daily left to use, or you're still feeling out the encounter. They're a weak use of your standard action, but they're always available. Your at-will AEs are small, so it's easy to avoid your own people while still catching the enemy. Use an AE at will any time you can catch two enemies in it, or when it can bypass cover or concealment, or, for that matter, overcome the DR of a swarm. AEs are handy, even the 1-square cloud of dagger, for the latter two reasons.

So, yes the fact that most of your AEs can affect your allies, and the high level of mobility in 4e makes using AEs in general and zones in particular challenging. But, it's a challenge that's potentially fun and interesting, and, if you're up to it, you can make quite a contribution, some of the time.

For example, in the session before last, our wizard used Stinking Cloud to cut the line of sight, and put damage on some 'artillery' monsters. The set-up of the encounter had a band of ice down the middle of the battlefield that was very difficult to fight on (you granted combat advantage and might fall prone), the monsters were set up on the other side, and thier artillery peppered us, while thier soldier & brutes readied to charge as soon as we got on the ice. By using the Stinking Cloud, our wizard shifted the balance of the ranged battle in our favor, forcing the monsters to cross the ice, and face us at a disadvantage. We beat the potentially very difficult encounter handily.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Like most classes, a wizard relies on synergy between his powers and the powers of his teammates. In 4e, no man is an island (well, barring a variety of broken rules).

As others have pointed out, you and your teammates have a variety of abilities that either stop foes moving, punish them for doing so, or inflict forced movement upon them. These can be easily comboed to turn a dangerous zone into a death trap.

If it was as simple as fire and forget, it wouldn't be nearly so fun!

 

[Moonsword]

Like most classes, a wizard relies on synergy between his powers and the powers of his teammates. In 4e, no man is an island (well, barring a variety of broken rules).

As others have pointed out, you and your teammates have a variety of abilities that either stop foes moving, punish them for doing so, or inflict forced movement upon them. These can be easily comboed to turn a dangerous zone into a death trap.

If it was as simple as fire and forget, it wouldn't be nearly so fun!

My, oh my, oh my, is this ever true. Wizards and wizard-alikes in 3rd edition may have gotten a damage knock, but dealing with the problem of your allies being in the area is nothing new to an old hand at wizardry. Pick your target carefully. If it's the last encounter of the day (or you're reasonably sure the healer(s) can handle it) and it fits your character concept, don't be afraid to tag the defender or striker with something if the risk is worth it. (Not all wizards would be willing to play that card, of course, and not all defenders and melee strikers are going to put up with a wizard getting "sloppy" - base it on the personalities. This isn't a pure tactical decision.) That said, try very hard not to smack them with debuffs as opposed to damage or movement effects - while damage can be absorbed and handled by the healer and movement effects can actually let you jerk them into advantageous positions, debuffs actively impede their abilities.

Also, if you are willing to risk catching them in the fringes, get a range of powers that target different defenses, not just for targeting enemies with different weaknesses but for the ability to tailor your hits for the allies that are potentially going to get tagged. If the only allies caught in the blast zone are a fighter and a rage barbarian, don't worry so much about hitting them with thunderwave - both of them have the hit points to laugh it off, and Fortitude is their primary Defense anyway, so they're less likely to get hit. In addition, if you do catch them, you can push them just like the enemy. (This is one of the few reasons to ever deliberately smack your allies with something as opposed to collateral damage - the rogue might not like getting hit, but if you shove him right into a flanking position, he's ikely to be a little less upset about it.) Conversely, don't drop thunderlance on them - very few builds for either one have much in the way of Reflex, and that spell does quite a bit of damage.

 

[Trevelyan]

My group is primarilly melee combatants (yey defenders!) but my areas are so large and persistant that I find it difficult to place the area in such a way that it hits and impacts the enemies without becoming a burden on my friends.

Other people have already given you a lot of good advice, but this line struck me as slightly odd. In my experience, a melee heavy party, especially one with some decent defenders, is a gift to a wizard. Your melee types should be forming a line whenever possible with you on one side and the monsters on the other. Once the defenders have locked a few monsters in place you can drop an AoE just the other side of the line, catching the monsters but not your allies. If you've got a fighter or two you can even pin the monsters down inside the cloud.

From the sounds of it, your party is splitting up too much in the fight and not making much effort to support one another or you. 4E works best when the party works together to maximise their advantages. High, automatic damage from sustainable wizard daily pwoers is one of the best advantages that you have, and the party as a whole should be looking to help you make the most of those powers.

 

[Lansolyn]

Great feedback

Hey everyone,

Great feedback so far. My party is working together better and we are working on forming defensive walls with the melee types working to push targets into my clouds and walls and it's working much better!

Thanks for the advice!

Lans