Wizard Sleep CSR Ruling

[Danceofmasks]

What do you mean as of right now?
Granted there were a couple of pre-release events wherein sleep was played (and written) differently, but by RAW this is how sleep works ever since the books hit the shelves.

So, since sleep was always supposed to be this way, if it never worked this way for you, why should it do so now?

 

[sobelius]

Orb implement.

For normal foes without any innate bonus to their saves, this means that they can never succeed at their saving throw to shrug off said effect (even a natural 20 gives just a net result of 9, shy of the 10 needed for success).

Natural 20 should always succeed -- it is in the spirit of the rest of the rules around rolling a 20, even if it isn't in the RAW.

 

[DanmarLOK]

It could always be errata'd to work in another fashion was my implication I suppose.

I've not had to deal it with myself, this all started when someone's DM houseruled that taking damage while slept broke the effect. This of course started a huge... discussion.

Curious I asked for an official CSR request who did rule that yes Sleep can only be broken by a Save hence the lack of any 'wake on damage' text in the Sleep power description.

Later I started thinking though about what that means and my concern if you will for the possibilities has been confirmed by others. Solo's going down or dealt so much damage that they're for all intents and purposes dead without ever really doing anything but failing their save against this power.

So probably not intended but smart use of powers, not exploiting or anything, just good tactics using the RAW, this is becoming a Save or Die spell which is pretty good for a level 1 that works all the way to level 30 and only gets more successful to happen as you level it up.

What do you mean as of right now?
Granted there were a couple of pre-release events wherein sleep was played (and written) differently, but by RAW this is how sleep works ever since the books hit the shelves.

So, since sleep was always supposed to be this way, if it never worked this way for you, why should it do so now?

 

[Ander00]

Keep in mind that the sleep spell imposes two different conditions - slowed and unconscious - and you can only apply the orb of imposition effect on either one of those. So you can't rely on it putting an enemy to sleep and it staying there without fail, though of course even one round of helplessness can be brutal.


cheers

 

[Runestar]

Keep in mind that the sleep spell imposes two different conditions - slowed and unconscious - and you can only apply the orb of imposition effect on either one of those. So you can't rely on it putting an enemy to sleep and it staying there without fail, though of course even one round of helplessness can be brutal.

That is a rather...interesting...interpretation. I can see how you arrive at that though.

Either way, by the time you have the wis to manage this, there will be a myriad of status-effect control spells you get to select from, not just sleep. Legion's hold or prismatic spray offer pretty much the same benefits.

Natural 20 should always succeed -- it is in the spirit of the rest of the rules around rolling a 20, even if it isn't in the RAW.

You don't auto-succeed at skill checks on a natural 20, IIRC, nor do you automatically hit a foe regardless of his AC on a natural 20 either. So that spirit apparently is no longer applicable in 4e.

Orb appears to be one of those "ultimate power, albeit at ridiculous cost" abilities. True, you need to invest in a fair amount of resources (namely, pumping wis, and it only really starts paying off towards the end of paragon), but the payoff at the end is really...wow...

 

[Danceofmasks]

You always hit on a natural 20 .. you just don't crit if it doesn't match their defense.
But ... attack rolls are pretty much the only auto success on a 20 roll.

 

[Heliac]

Using the Orb with Sleep

I have copied the following from another forum (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=398539&page=3) because I need more opinions on the matter, please...

This from page 279 in the PHB:

"Some powers create effects that require multiple saving throws to fully escape. These powers include aftereffects that apply after you save against the initial effect. For example, a power might knock you unconscious until you save but have an aftereffect that slows you. Once you save against the unconscious condition, you need to save against the slowed condition before you’ve fully escaped the power’s effects. An aftereffect doesn’t begin until after you’ve rolled all your saving throws at the end of your turn. This means you can’t make a saving throw against an aftereffect at the end of the same turn when you saved against the initial effect."

Originally Posted by Deadmanwalking:
And only Web and Necrotic Web have "Effects" that produce a Save. So that seems unlikely to be their intent...

I agree... as seen in the PHB quote above, they use the terms "effect" and "condition" quite loosely, so I think it is safe to say that it doesn't have to be under the "Effects" heading for something to be classified as an effect. Now, the text for the Orb in the PHB says:

"You can designate one creature you have cast a wizard spell upon that has an effect that lasts until the subject succeeds on a saving throw. That creature takes a penalty to its saving throws against that effect equal to your Wisdom modifier."

The way I read this, you can use the Orb EITHER on the saves against "unconsciousnous" OR on the saves against "slowed", since either classifies as "an effect that lasts until the subject succeeds on a saving throw".

So the real question is, would the "aftereffect" of an initial effect also be seen as an effect for the purposes of defining it in terms of using the Orb?

Our options are:
a) Both are seen as effects - You may use the Orb on any one of them
b) Only the initial effect is seen as an effect - You may only use the Orb on that
c) As a whole they are seen as an effect - You can use the Orb on both as one

I would love choose option (c) but honestly, it would feel a bit like cheating; you are forcing the BBEG to take a double penalty, not to mention you are applying the Orb to two effects that last until the subject succeeds on a saving throw, which is hardly what the PHB says.

That leaves us with options (a) & (b), so IMO you can only use the Orb on one effect, especially because the effects stack...

 

[DracoSuave]

You can't hit, kick, beat the creature affected by unconsciousness awake. However, a Heal check, DC 15 will do just the trick. Once you reach a high enough level, this check is an autosuccess for any enemy you come across.

 

[Hypersmurf]

However, a Heal check, DC 15 will do just the trick.

... unless the save penalty has reached minus thirteen, of course...

-Hyp.

 

[DracoSuave]

... unless the save penalty has reached minus thirteen, of course...

-Hyp.

That's epic tier. Time to bring out the saving-throw bonus abilities if you have an orbizard in the team.