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Wizard wanted to use mage hand to take a weapon
- Thread starter Evenglare
- Start date
Hussar
Legend
THat does seem a trifle overpowering for a cantrip. And, it could be prone to abuse. It would really depend on the player, IMO. If you trust that this is going to be a one time thing and it's not going to become a problem later (or if it does become a problem, you know that you can talk to the player and resolve it) then I'd probably let it go. Or, I'd certainly be more inclined.
Personally, I like the idea of a -2 penalty to attacks better than simply yanking the bow away. I don't like it for two reasons - the above balance issues, and, from a plausibility side as well. STR 2 force just doesn't seem strong enough to get the job done.
I wanna say yes, but, I'd be very leery of doing so. A compromise (the penalty to attack) seems reasonable. The Wizzie is doing something useful, but, he's not going to grind the game to a halt with this later down the road.
Personally, I like the idea of a -2 penalty to attacks better than simply yanking the bow away. I don't like it for two reasons - the above balance issues, and, from a plausibility side as well. STR 2 force just doesn't seem strong enough to get the job done.
I wanna say yes, but, I'd be very leery of doing so. A compromise (the penalty to attack) seems reasonable. The Wizzie is doing something useful, but, he's not going to grind the game to a halt with this later down the road.
Argyuile said:
I don't know about that. This seems to be a restriction on Prestidigitation to reign in what is effectively a "do whatever you can imagine" type of power.
The actual description of what Cantrips are doesn't mention any sort of restriction, so I don't see why the Wizards class abilities would be restricted in such a way while other classes have abilities useful in combat.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think Mage Hand would be terribly useful in this situation, but it can annoy or distract someone in combat.
If a Wizard wants to spend their actions trying to mess around with a magic hand instead of throwing magical bolts of force, I don't see an issue with that so long as you don't set a precedent that it can do more than a cantrip should be able to do.
LowSpine
First Post
There was some reference to 20 pounds being a strength of 2. That refers to a whole body, not just a hand.
I would just rule that it can do anything the wizard can do physically with one hand (Grab above is a one hand physical action) but with range and use Arcana, Intelligence and Will instead of strength and Fortitude/Reflex where appropriate.
All this does is give range to anything the wizard can do anyway (one handed).
I would also rule that complicated actions are prohibited such as picking a lock as the level of control of the Mage Hand does not make this practical. I would say the same of doing anything such as an attack. Mage Handing a dagger will not have as effective attack and damage as holding the dagger - hence the 1d2/1d3 max damage above.
Another thing that I would rule is that any action with the Mage Hand would have a penalty to the action -1 to -4 depending on the circumstances. Other than range it should always be easier to try an action with your hand than a Mage Hand.
I would just rule that it can do anything the wizard can do physically with one hand (Grab above is a one hand physical action) but with range and use Arcana, Intelligence and Will instead of strength and Fortitude/Reflex where appropriate.
All this does is give range to anything the wizard can do anyway (one handed).
I would also rule that complicated actions are prohibited such as picking a lock as the level of control of the Mage Hand does not make this practical. I would say the same of doing anything such as an attack. Mage Handing a dagger will not have as effective attack and damage as holding the dagger - hence the 1d2/1d3 max damage above.
Another thing that I would rule is that any action with the Mage Hand would have a penalty to the action -1 to -4 depending on the circumstances. Other than range it should always be easier to try an action with your hand than a Mage Hand.
LostSoul
Adventurer
Hussar said:
I think the key is that you have to use an action to do something with the mage hand. I'd have no problem with "I use my Mage Hand to slap him silly." Okay, looking at pg 42, Int vs. AC, 1d6+3 damage.
Looking at Exorcism of Steel - an Encounter Power - it's effect is pretty much the same as what we want here. So if you want to disarm the guy: Int vs. AC, the guy drops the weapon, 1/encounter (they're wary of that mage hand now and keep a tight grip).
I think the action economy works something like this:
Standard action:
Power: Effect + dmg.
Basic Action: Effect.
Look at Bull Rush and Tide of Iron. Tide of Iron is 1[W] + Bull Rush. Now I don't think it's that simple - some things seem too powerful - but it looks like that's how things work.
I want to come up with a list of "rider effects" and see if I can come up with a list of basic actions - actions that anyone can take - and how often you can do it (at-will, like Bull Rush/Tide of Iron, or Disarm/Exorcism of Steel, 1/encounter).
Also, interesting failures can help to balance things out. If failure at the check means the guy gets a free basic attack at you (not an OA), that could help.
Selganor
Adventurer
After the first encounter in KotS (we have just finished 2 encounters) I got a special plan for my Wizard if we encounter more Kobolds with special ammunition. Now that I know where they keep it (we found the empty container), I intend to grab it with a Magic Hand and then either drop it above the sling wielder or one of his allies.
I'll let you know how my DM responds to this strategy.
I'll let you know how my DM responds to this strategy.
Mage Hand would clearly be too weak to yank the bow out of someone's hands. But it would not be too weak to yank the arrow out of the bow. Arrows aren't being held with any particular force by an archer; any slap or grab could easily pluck the arrow away. Unfortunately for the wizard in this instance, reloading the bow is a free action for the orc, so it would only be a minor and brief inconvenience to swipe the arrow.
Rabbitbait
Grog-nerd
My take is that Mage hand is not just weak - It's clumsy. Sort of like those poles with the grasp on the end that people use to pick up rubbish (only without the pole)
Because it's clumsy, it's almost impossible to get a grasp on a moving item. That would include anything someone is carrying or wearing in a combat situation. You can try, but you'd better roll very high vs reflex to grab, and then roll very high vs fort to pull it away.
So it's possible, but once you've tried it a few times you'll realize it's not the best tactic.
Because it's clumsy, it's almost impossible to get a grasp on a moving item. That would include anything someone is carrying or wearing in a combat situation. You can try, but you'd better roll very high vs reflex to grab, and then roll very high vs fort to pull it away.
So it's possible, but once you've tried it a few times you'll realize it's not the best tactic.
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