Wizards who refuse to use blast spells

[Felon]

A full-round action to burn a single square of Web?

That's ridiculous, considering the roots of the spell. I'll have to move Web up a level or two or rule that a Web spell burns like tissue paper if you set it afire.

Well, bear in mind that many if not most opponents won't have access to fire anyway. Constructs, plants, animals, vermin, magical beasts, and just about anything else with an bestial level of intelligence won't be carrying around tindertwigs. Burning oneself out is more of a desperate solution for PC's than for the opposition.

 

[sword-dancer]

Hiya,

Amongst my group of friends, there has often been a conceit that wizards who resort to Fireball and Magic Missile are unoriginal and therefore poor choices.

I´ve nothing against them, but personally i found them uninteresting.

Grease, Web,

are also Big Favourites of mine, also Spraying Colours and so on.

a) They make creatures boring to run - oops, I failed a balance check or a reflex save, no movement for me! Nothing makes a big boss lose his aura of menace like repeatedly falling over in his square.

There i fault a DM, that they must show their Big baddie NPCs menacing.

c) They just aren't very heroic - it seems that most battles against powerful opponents end with the PCs rendering the NPC effectively helpless, then hacking it to bits.

What´s wrong with that?

 

[Felon]

There i fault a DM, that they must show their Big baddie NPCs menacing.

Please elaborate. How is the DM at fault for providing big, bad, menacing opponents? They should be harmless-looking pinatas instead?

What´s wrong with that?

Rendering foes helpless while the PC's hack them bits is pretty lame, especially if most foes have no defense. I think it's safe to say a large contingent of gamers came to D&D looking for heroic battles, not pinata-smashing fiestas.

 

[Rakin]

I think he meant that it's the DM's fault if his own baddies are "boring to run" that it's the DM's job to "show their Big baddie NPCs menacing".

Unlike video games, MMOs take a good bit of creativity(even though WOTC is trying ot change that imo), espceially when it comes to GMing. You don't have a computer and other people's ideas and thoughts to fall back on when things start to get crazy, in fact trying to find as way around (as a GM) players using spells a certian way is the fn of table-topping! (well at least it is for me). now don't get me wrong, I'm not all about trying to make everything the players do useless, but baddies should at least have enough instinct if not smarts to try and avoid and come up with solutions to getting around things like web.

I really loved the giants pulling out the web trees and throwing them bit. Genious.

 

[Dread October]

Ok look,

(Still in disbelief that this is a conversation about web being too powerful or ruining the fun of combat)

The only time my PC have ever had to whip out Web is when they were flat out being swarmed on by superior numbers or singular opposition.

It's not normally the first spell pulled out by mage during an encounter UNLESS the mage is controlled by ME while DMing and his mission is "Immobilize as many of the PCs as he can".

By the time the PCs go for web, a significant amount of their resources have been depleted AND they don't always go in and attack helpless NPCs either since most of what they will have to do will now be against opponents with some cover AND while they are doing it, reinforcements are possibly arriving.

No one would wast a Web spell on some animal they could just shoot at. They could use a web spell on Winter Wolves or something but if that's effective, the Wolves might have a master somewhere in the fight and not in the area of the web.


Web isn't too powerful but perhaps any DM having trouble with it may want to alter tactics a bit. I can't count the numbe rof times I've heard:

PC 1 - We are getting creamed
PC 2 - Do we have any area effect magic
PC 1 - I can cast Web on the ones over there
PC 3 - Cool...WAIT!! I'm over there too and I can't move yet!
PC 1 - We'll I can't take another hit from these ****ing whatever they are!!

If the enemy is amongst the party then even spells like Grease require some extra thought.

 

[felwar]

It sounds like your wizard is at least smart enough to understand his role, although he needs some variety. Dealing damage is only a wizard's second job. His first job is controlling the combat environment. I'm guessing that's what "controller" is going to mean a bit, but basically funnel enemies, slow them down, block them, and generally be a PITA while your sword-swinging companions clean them up. Now if you're going to be overrun by a large number of weak opponents or don't want to waste your controlling spells? Yeah, then you throw the fireball.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I would agree that Web is a poorly designed spell, but surely we must be talking about more than just Web and Grease and Glitterdust?

An effective offensive spellcaster needs 2 things: line of sight and information

In very vanilla scenarios those might seem to be one and the same.

Line of sight can be denied by magical (or natural) fogs, darkness, or walls, or reduced drastically by the terrain itself.

Information can be controlled by hiding the nature of the opponents, hiding who is the real threat and who is an expendable mook, using illusions, or manipulating the pace of combat. The last one requires some subtlety. If the opponents can feint...or the opposite, the PCs may find their standard tactics do not work so well. Eventually the party will hit a level where the opposition could fog, Web, Stinking Cloud, Sleet Storm, or wall in order to retreat. And you can always resort to SR and mobility enhancing magic as a last resort (although I would consider this a bad habit for a DM to do all the time).

OTOH the PCs are supposed to fight unfair the majority of the time. FREX, surely a non-uber party could not clear out the G-series by fighting fair toe-to-toe with a small army of giants.

What is important is to make sure things do not feel like they are falling into a rut.

 

[sword-dancer]

Please elaborate. How is the DM at fault for providing big, bad, menacing opponents? They should be harmless-looking pinatas instead?.

No i fault the GM for my big bad Baddies have to be menacing no matter what the other players/pcs do.
The GMs show must go on.

Rendering foes helpless while the PC's hack them bits is pretty lame,

Depends, was it also lame to render them helpless.

 

[Warren Okuma]

What's good for the goose is good for the gander:

PC: "Web!"
BBEG: "Web!"

And stickiness ensues. Several minutes later...

BBEG: "So... where were we?"

No, no, no, the BBEG webs, runs for his life, and tells all the other evil guys on what the PC's do, and since he survived the encounter he levels up...

Then he turns invisible and fireballs the party, webs and runs away or use the other tactics that has been suggested in this thread.

 

[Felon]

Ok look,

(Still in disbelief that this is a conversation about web being too powerful or ruining the fun of combat)

The only time my PC have ever had to whip out Web is when they were flat out being swarmed on by superior numbers or singular opposition.

It's not normally the first spell pulled out by mage during an encounter UNLESS the mage is controlled by ME while DMing and his mission is "Immobilize as many of the PCs as he can".

By the time the PCs go for web, a significant amount of their resources have been depleted AND they don't always go in and attack helpless NPCs either since most of what they will have to do will now be against opponents with some cover AND while they are doing it, reinforcements are possibly arriving.

Apparently, mileage varies quite a bit on this matter. We weren't initially just talking about web, but since that's where the discussion has shifted, I'll indulge.

"Too powerful" is one of those loose, sloppy terms that get tossed around these forums lazily, so I"m avoiding using it as best I can. More specifically, has a lot of potential to render a mass combat encounter boring--and not just at low levels--because web is a showstopper for many opponents even if they make their Reflex save. The checks required to get out of a web are pretty severe.

I hear arguements that friendly fire is a concern, but that has to be coming from folks who are being too hasty--either that, or the melee guys are doing some kind of weird stage dive into the middle of the pack rather than forming a front line.