World demographics - how many of each major race?

[prosfilaes]

A lot of this stuff has to do with personal assumptions. Do elves and humans frequently intermingle, particularly sexually, or is interspecies dallying rare? Are angels and demons walking around sleeping with people, or are encounters with them rare events? Is non-human blood something that quickly dilutes and disappears, or will one mating produces tieflings and half-elves generations down the line?

In the more general sense: I like to marginalize the elves and dwarves demographically. If I were coming up with one for my Golarion Inner Sea, humans would be the largest group, but not the majority; halflings, kobolds*, gnomes, orcs and ratfolk bring up the tail. Golarion halflings are a big and frequently overlooked part of human society, though I'm expanding their demographics a bit. Even then, I think in standard D&D settings, halflings have a decent claim on the second most populous civilized race; they're small with relatively short lifespans and socially likely to go undercounted.

* Among my more nonstandard additions, both in general and Golarion wise. IMC kobolds have strong LN tendencies, and are underfoot and a large part of the workforce in many human cities.

 

[steeldragons]

I love world building stuff! This kind of thing, though, I never really firmly defined numerically. So...I'll give it a shot.

Again, as others have said, it is completely up to you and the world you want. Are humans a dominant race or elves...or dwarves....or goblinoids for that matter? Then, of course, are some regions of your world more heavily populated by some than others...it's a kingdom by kingdom or region by region kind of thing.

Obviously, the dominant race in a major elvin kingdom/forest are going to be more elves than anything else. Dominant races of a human kingdom/region/realm are going be humans...and what is the culture? Are they xenophobic (humans ONLY!)? Is there a culture of slavery (so it's humans with xyz races in numbers, possibly even greater numbers, but no power)? Is there a huge trading town or bustling merchant metropolis with every race represented there in some fashion (either as visiting with their wares or actual "ghettos" or neighborhoods of different peoples)? There's just no real "right" answers...and what may be the "norm" in this section of the world or even a certain section within a kingdom/nation, might be vastly different in another.

I'll beak down the major "traditional" player races by a hundred folks (as I would see it, in my world, in a moderately mixed city).

Humans: 70 out of 100 (my game world has 7 specific [PC] cultures/ethnicities for humans. So depending on where this theoretical city is in the world would determine what ratio of human from each ethnicity would be there.)
Elves: 7 out of 100
Halflings: 7 out of 100
Dwarves: 5 out of 100
Gnomes: 3 out of 100
Goblins: 2 out of 100 (might, possibly, be a hobgoblin or bugbear, as well) Half-elves: 1 out of 100
Half-orcs: 1 out of 100
Centaurs: 1 out of 100
Lizardmen: 1 out of 100
Satyrs and Sprites: 1 out of 100 (combined, something like a 70/30%, satyrs to sprites, split there)
...and the last 1% pretty much just covers any other special/strange/exotic or unique individuals that might be present.

 

[Bungus]

good ideas so far everybody. Thanks for the input so far!

 

[steeldragons]

To carry on with this (since now you have my world-gears turnin' And on a rainy Sat. afternoon, this is good fun for me)..let's say said city has a total population of...60,000 (which actually makes it a fairly large city for my world...I think the biggest I've developed has 80k or so) so...

Testademo City: pop. 60,000
Humans are the dominant race in this region of the Orea (we'll put Testademo City in "the Freelands"): 42,000 humans. Most are the common mix from many of the human nations across the world, called Freelanders (31,000).
- The desert-dwelling folk of Thelitia, being concerned with trade of all kinds, have set up many shops and control Testademo's largest merchant's guild, but they are an rather insular people. Only 5,000 of Testademo's humans are pure-bred Thelitian, mostly found in a predominantly Thelitian "Merchant's Quarter".
- Being a large trade hub, Testademo is, of course, on the coast, sending and receiving a large amount of cargo every day through their port. So, the sea-faring peoples are not an uncommon occurrence. The dark-skinned Tanku Islanders constitute 3,000 of Testademo's humans at any given time.
- Mariners from the southern kingdom of Mostrial (decidedly Celtic in look and flavor) are also common enough. 2,000 Mostralian humans, mostly to be found around the port and the wharfside's many taverns.
- Galleons of goods or traders traveling by land from the northern kingdom of Grinlia are almost constantly coming or going from Testademo. Grinlian humans (more Mediterranean/southern Italian and Greek in look and flavor) number around 500 at any given time.
- Native's of the Magelands of R'Hath control and administrate, of course, the Mages' Guild. A few others might be teaching in various academies, serving as "house wizard's" for the upper crusty or courts, in libraries or tending to the temple of the goddess of magic. Say, 300 R'Hathi natives are scattered about the city.
- The remaining 200 humans are odds n' ends of mixed parentage or wanderers, merchants and adventurers just passing through from anywhere else in Orea.

Elves are only 4200 of Testademo's population. 2,000 of those make up special units of archers, spellcasters and scouts in Testademo's city guard/army. Another 1,200 make up artisans and craftsmen of items in which the elves are famed (wines, jewelry, leather goods, and of course bowyer/flectchers). The remaining 1,000 make up the mates and families as well as the random adventurers, travelers and "out of town" elves visiting or passing through.

Halflings are also 4200 individuals. The bulk of these have built up a very halfling and other short-folk friendly neighborhood, referred to as "Squat town" by most of the city's residents. This primarily halfling ghetto is famed for its bakeries and other food specialty artisans and shops. But halflings can be found enjoying a drink, song or looking for adventure in just about any section of the city.

Dwarves make up 3,000 of Testademo's population. As always, there is no shortage of need for weapon and armor smiths, metalworkers of all kinds and, in a big human city, stone masons. More than few make a living with the city guard and or seeking adventure for their own gain.

Gnomes, being more rare as a race than other demihumans (and more at home in the woods and hills than loud, hard, big human cities) only total up to 1800 Testademo-ites (?). They are mostly found as gemcutters and jewelry makers, as well as illusionists teaching or studying among the R'Hathi or entertaining. Not to mention several members of the Thieves' guild. There's also a specific "all gnomish rogue gang" causing much consternation for both the guard and guild.

Goblins can be found in and among the less desirable neighborhoods of the city. Though it is nearly impossible to get a direct count, estimates say 1200 goblins and goblinoids might be found in Testademo at any one time. Many of these inhabit the slums and sewers though some do try to make an "honest living" as messengers or menial laborers. They are particularly useful for Testademo's trash collection services. More than a few hobgoblins are seen around town, usually as hired swords for any of the numerous merchant caravans coming and going. There are more than one of Testademo's "rougher" taverns that sport bugbears as bouncers...and those are just the goblinoids that are known to be legally in the city.

Half-elves, either as the offspring of resident human/elf combinations or traveling loners, number at only 600. A few are known to make a fine living as minstrels or bards in some of the more affluent villas or taverns in nicer neighborhoods.

Half-orcs number the same (600) though their roles in the city are more diverse. Several are involved with the thieve's guild, there are others who engage in some trade or craft, transient adventure seekers, and even one who has gained some repute and respect as a sergeant in the city guard.

Testademo has the distinct honor of possessing a sizable contingent of Centaurs. Nearly half of the city's 600 equine residents make a living as specialty cavalry and ranging scouts in the city's guard. Most of the centaur "residents" actually make their homes in the surrounding countryside and woods, coming into the city daily for their business and shopping.

In the centaur wood, so near the city, there is a community of roughly 300 Satyrs. There are about 100 you actually live and work/do business of varying capacity (and legality) within the city walls. Sprites are also sometimes seen flitting through the market places or serving mages, sages, in the company of elves or simply making mischief as they are known to inhabit the same woods as the satyrs and centaurs. Their numbers within or without the walls are believed to not exceed 200.

Possibly the city's most disconcerting inhabitants are the 600 Lizardmen that keep rather close to port and wharf at all times (though it is said, with much disgust by the "respectable" people of the city's upper echelons, that many if not most "live in the sewers!") To find a lizardman in one of the city's many "adventurer hang outs" or serving on one of the hundreds of ships that pass through Testademo's port, looking to sell their sword or spear is not all that uncommon. There is one lizardman "uptown", an elderly sage of some repute (and significant wealth), who is tolerated by the upper crust of the city...moreso as an exotic "oddity" and attraction than any actual interest or respect.

Also in residence in Testademo can generally be found (total of 600):
50 Minotaurs who sell their muscle to the highest bidder. Several serve as bouncers around town, swords for hire, and 10 of them run an illegal "Bull Wrestling" ring that makes them a lot of money.
20 Zepharim (winged humanoids of Orea) who are only present as an "Embassy"/ambassadors of the famed Wind Wizard who lives in the high Daegan mountain peaks north of the city. They are basically treated as dignitaries wherever they go and are found only in the city's central keep and viewed with outright awe by the wealthy and powerful who get to interact with them.
20 Jerali (Orean felinoids) half of whom have an acrobatic troupe who perform weekly. The others maintain various positions, a few as city guards, more as private guards or serving some other household, There is a duo who sells their services (and keen senses) as investigators/bounty hunters...if you know how to find them.
15 Dopplegangers are in the city in various places, organizations, posing as various persons for who knows what sinister ends.
1 Deva/aasimar/creature of the higher planes is said to reside, in solitude, in the highest tower of the temple of Solilorr (god of knowledge). He...she...or it?...makes a once-a-year public appearance on (Solilorr's high holiday) to deliver oracular prophecy...(primarily to those patrons of the temple who have made hefty donations throughout the year).
100 Drow have infiltrated the city. They have taken over/puppeteering one of the city's smaller merchant guilds. The human guildmaster who fronts it thinks he is actually in control/getting the better part of his bargain with them and has no actual knowledge of their true intentions.
50 Wererats have nested in the city sewers. They come above ground to mug and scavenge at night.
1 Wereboar/Devil Boar lives, by day, as a merchant of near grotesque opulence. By night he throws lavish parties of depravity and feasts on those guests that won't be missed.
10 Vampires make up one of Testademo's more wealthy, if reclusive, families.
1 Medusa makes an "honest" living as a fortuneteller (behind a full veil) known as "the Mysterious Madame Sarpanta" in a small shop in the city's more run-down neighborhoods. The fact that she uses an actual crystal ball and wears a medallion of ESP has gained her a bit of a reputation for accuracy. The fact that she feeds on the poor, homeless and other unsavory individuals has kept her above/outside of suspicion.
7 Rakshasas have made a home for themselves (unbeknownst to the rest of the city).
200 Wood elves making their homes among the general elvin population or just passing through.
150 Assorted Faye including brownies, pixies, pooka and others are scattered about the city, mostly unknown to the general populace.
75 "Tieflings" or humanoids containing varying amounts of demonic or diabolic blood (since "tieflings" per se do not inhabit Orea) infest he city, some passable as humans, some trying to make a living, some monstrous and/or hidden, none trusted, all feared.

Whew. ok. if my math is correct (and note that it rarely is), that's 60,000.
Passed the afternoon (and evening at this point!) though. lol.

[EDIT: Ya know, this ain't half bad (if I do say so myself ...think I'm gonna change the name of the city to something more "Orean" and use this in an actual game. lol. /EDIT]
--SD

 

[S'mon]

German tribes did bring down Rome, after all, and that probably required quite a few men.

I think the striking thing is how small the barbarian tribes were. A few hundred thousand men destroyed an empire of fifty million or so, around one hundred times as large. Warrior races are never populous, but with up to 1/3 the population under arms they can have a huge advantage over a noncombatant population defended by a small professional military - especially when that military is partly comprised of members of that same warrior race!

REH had a point when he said 'barbarism will always triumph' - that had been the tendency until the decisive military weapons technology became so complex and expensive that it required a civilisation to support it, with warfighting power determined largely by size of industrial base.

 

[Bungus]

I think the striking thing is how small the barbarian tribes were. A few hundred thousand men destroyed an empire of fifty million or so, around one hundred times as large. Warrior races are never populous, but with up to 1/3 the population under arms they can have a huge advantage over a noncombatant population defended by a small professional military - especially when that military is partly comprised of members of that same warrior race!

REH had a point when he said 'barbarism will always triumph' - that had been the tendency until the decisive military weapons technology became so complex and expensive that it required a civilisation to support it, with warfighting power determined largely by size of industrial base.

Didn't the Bolsheviks overthrow the Russian monarchy with a very small number of actual soldiers?

but, good point on the barbarian hordes against the professional military, but didn't Rome at the end rely more on mercenaries than citizen-soldiers like it had at its height?

 

[Bungus]

steel - I'd XP you again if I could. Great work, great ideas.

 

[S'mon]

Didn't the Bolsheviks overthrow the Russian monarchy with a very small number of actual soldiers?

but, good point on the barbarian hordes against the professional military, but didn't Rome at the end rely more on mercenaries than citizen-soldiers like it had at its height?

The Bolsheviks didn't overthrow the Russian monarchy - there had already been a revolution in February 1917 that overthrew the monarchy - removed it from power, then later declared a Republic - but the Kerensky provisional government was unpopular because it decided to continue the war with Germany, so the Germans sent Lenin back to Russia on a sealed train as a sort of human weapon.

Rome at its height had an army of professional soldiers who were Citizens but generally not ethnically Roman, backed by non-citizen Auxiliaries. Late Rome had the problem that not only were the soldiers often German, increasingly the leaders were also unassimilated Germans also, and knowledge of Roman warfighting techniques spread well beyond Roman borders. But I would not overstate the difference; the main change was a shift towards cavalry as the main arm and the decline of the infantry Legions into frontier garrisons, rather than the earlier situation of Legions being the core of the military with weak cavalry.

Mercenary is a vague term; Roman forces were never to any significant extent 'mercenaries' in the commonly understood sense of military paid by the government but not structured or organised by the government. If the British Gurkhas or French Foreign Legion are mercenaries, then much of the late Roman army would be mercenary by that standard.

 

[Desdichado]

I think in general you'd have to make a case that the fall of the Roman Empire was more based on other domestic policy and internal issues rather than a military defeat. Sure, the Roman's were defeated militarily in several battles, but that wasn't really the cause of the fall of the Empire exactly.

Plus, the Romans were spectacularly successful against the barbarians in Gaul and Hispania in earlier generations. Barbarism doesn't ALWAYS win.

The Chinese were also frequently quite successful against the Hsiung-nu, the Wu-sun, etc. Although they were also overthrown and ruled by dynasties of Mongol and Manchu extraction, of course. And the Sassanians, like the Romans, were overthrown by Arab barbarians, but again there are generally believed to have been so weakened and depleted by other things that the military defeat was more of a coup de grace rather than an actual overthrow in the traditional sense.

In almost every case where barbarians "always" win, it's because civilization has become decadent and rotted internally first.

 

[Mercurius]

I'm not entirely sure what the question is as the answer is entirely up to you, what the basic assumptions of your world are. In other words, there is no one size fits all - what is your world like?

I would suggest that you not worry about the overall world so much and start with the primary region of the campaign. Sure, get a general sense of the overall world, but you don't want to build yourself into a corner and have to fit pre-determined criteria. Start with the main region and try to figure out what mixture you want to go with.

In a now-dying campaign I went with the assumption that dwarves were the most powerful political and military race, although not quite as populous as humans - just more organized. Elves were a somewhat distant third. Orcs were actually more populous than the civilized races but were very disorganized and warred amongs themselves, with different sub-races in different areas.

But again, you can go with whatever you want. What about a world in which humans are relatively few, perhaps most of them died off in a cataclysmic event or war and are just now starting to re-populate? Again, play with ideas - it is your world, after all!