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[World Design] Implications of a longer day

Aexalon

Explorer
Imagine if you would the moon of a jovian planet. Tidally locked with its big parent, the length of day would match the duration of one orbit of the moon around the planet (synodically). For the purpose of the discussion I'm soliciting, the following assumptions are made:
  • That the moon be habitable and life-supporting (by whatever means), sporting an ecosphere not too dissimilar (in nature if not in appearance) to that of a terrestrial planet.
  • That the planet's apparent size be some 10-15 degrees across in the moon's sky, with your typical gas giant albedo (i.e., planetlight is going to be some 8 to 10 magnitudes -or 1600 to 10000 times- stronger than moonlight as we experience it on Earth. For reference, the Sun appears ~450000 times brighter in our sky than the moon does).
  • That the moon completes one orbit around the planet in 60 standard hours, and that the planet completes one orbit of its primary (or primaries) in 60 of these "lunar days" (entirely coincidentally, I assure you :))
The issues I see rising from this setup (besides the physical ones, which aren't the ones I'm looking to discuss at the moment) are the following:
  • How would you see different fantasy races (and/or cultures) coping with a 30h day followed by 30h of night (which, depending on your location on the moon, may or may not be illuminated by the planet hanging motionless in the sky, undergoing a complete phase cycle every "day")? Would you advocate a simple scale-up (i.e. running around awake for 40h followed by 20h of sleeping)? Or would you (as I am) consider more interesting and complex sleep cycles, and if so, which?
  • How would you go about adjusting the D&D rules (3.5E for argument's sake) to handle a 60h day? Spell preparation? Natural healing? Effect duration? "x/day" abilities?
As to not restrict the discussion too much, feel free to consider much longer day lengths (though there climate effects are going to become much more pronounced as the "day" side heats up considerable, and the night side cools down likewise), or even shorter day lengths (like Earth in its early time). Now, have at thee!
 
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Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
I'd say that if the campaign races all evolved under those conditions, play should be basically unaffected- more of a "fluff" thing than a mechanical concern. Races from other planets, however, might be able to recharge their spells/powers/abilities much more rapidly (or more slowly) than the natives, since they're on a different "solar cycle."

You might also want to consider reading descriptions of what its like living in the Arctic Circle. Its kind of weird seeing the sun at night...

For the implications of a much longer day, I can think of no better source than Isaac Asimov's short story, "Nightfall," expanded to novel length with the aid of Robert Silverburg. Its also a Bollywood movie- not too bad, all things considered.

It's kind of like the movie Pitch Black, but without the clash of humans and aliens...In a civilized world in a multiple sun & other body system with only one sentient species, full night only comes once every 1000 years. One of the "thriller" attractions at an amusement park in the story is a room which has no windows, so people can experience total darkness.

I will not ruin the book for you- suffice it to say that the short story is considered to be one of the best in the history of sci-fi.

But here is a link to some info about it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nightfall_(Isaac_Asimov)
 
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grodog

Hero
For the cultural implications of very extended seasons (an analog to your day length, perhaps), see George R. R. Martin's Song of Ice and Fire books. There's not a lot in them about the actual length of summer vs. winter from the scientific POV (yet---and I haven't read the most-current book in the series yet), but the entire culture of the Seven Kingdoms region is built around the idea of summers and winters that last years, in cycles.

For some excellent reading on scientific worldbuilding, if you can find a copy (to buy, or more likely, in a university library), Terraforming: Engineering Planetary Environments is well-worth looking up. While the book is focused on terraforming vs. planetary creation, per se, it's an excellent book that's filled with useful advice, information, implications, systems, etc. on building planetary environments. I found it to be immensely useful while working on the Blue Planet rpg some years ago.

Amazon link @ http://www.amazon.com/Terraforming-...3701508?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1181480220&sr=8-1

Edit: also, Roger Zelazny's world of Shadowjack for some inspiration, perhaps (which is tidally locked like our moon---again, an approximation of what you're looking for, only, alas...).
 
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Xeriar

First Post
aexalon said:
[*]That the planet's apparent size be some 10-15 degrees across in the moon's sky, with your typical gas giant albedo (i.e., planetlight is going to be some 9 to 12 magnitudes -or 1.000 to 10.000 times- stronger than moonlight as we experience it on Earth. For reference, the Sun appears ~50.000 times brighter in our sky than the moon does).

That the moon completes one orbit around the planet in 60 standard hours, and that the planet completes one orbit of its primary (or primaries) in 60 of these "lunar days" (entirely coincidentally, I assure you :))

Orange dwarf parent I take it?

How would you see different fantasy races (and/or cultures) coping with a 30h day followed by 30h of night (which, depending on your location on the moon, may or may not be illuminated by the planet hanging motionless in the sky, undergoing a complete phase cycle every "day")? Would you advocate a simple scale-up (i.e. running around awake for 40h followed by 20h of sleeping)? Or would you (as I am) consider more interesting and complex sleep cycles, and if so, which?

Err, you're going to have a twin world sort of setup, here. Things that evolved facing the planet are going to be looking at things differently than things that did not. Keep in mind the planet is going to have a magnitude in the -20 range - it's going to supply a blue sky and light the world, though not warm it, any time the sun goes down. By the time it vanishes, the sun is coming back up. That side of the world is eternally lit, outside of eclipses, which will be spectacular.

The other side of the world will probably have a 20/40 sleep cycle or 15/45. Humans are usually geared to 7/17.5 or so, but I've seen no reason to think that couldn't scale up to quadruple that.

Both might use the same cycle, given the planet is likely a few hundred times dimmer than the sun, but still.

How would you go about adjusting the D&D rules (3.5E for argument's sake) to handle a 60h day? Spell preparation? Natural healing? Effect duration? "x/day" abilities?[/list]
As to not restrict the discussion too much, feel free to consider much longer day lengths (though there climate effects are going to become much more pronounced as the "day" side heats up considerable, and the night side cools down likewise), or even shorter day lengths (like Earth in its early time). Now, have at thee!

Keep in mind this is a much cooler star you're dealing with, though it will possibly be a flare star, which would have interesting consequences. Temperature extremes will likely be moderated by additional cloud cover - plankton on Earth play a powerful role in cloud formation and it would seem likely that your planet would have an even more developed mechanism, with, possibly, a very stormy world.

Regarding how I'd use the rules, I tend to despise x/day abilities and such in general, so I won't comment much there.
 

Angel Tarragon

Dawn Dragon
Interesting that this is brought up. My homebrew revolves around two stationary solar bodies, but each set apart from each other and also have planetary bodies that revolve between them. The orbit or the primary world (where my homebrew takes place) has a 36 hour day cycle, with a month consisting of 6 weeks (10 days each) and 16 months to a year.
 

Angel Tarragon

Dawn Dragon
Points about my homebrew

aexalon said:
That the moon be habitable and life-supporting (by whatever means), sporting an ecosphere not too dissimilar (in nature if not in appearance) to that of a terrestrial planet.
First let me sart off by staing that the primary planet I use in my homebrew is *huge*; nine times the size of Earth. It has nine satellites, each one the size of Earth. Eight of these moons are linked werecreatures they affect by alignment. The ninth, actually has an atmosphere much like our own and supports its own ecosystem.


aexalon said:
That the moon completes one orbit around the planet in 60 standard hours, and that the planet completes one orbit of its primary (or primaries) in 60 of these "lunar days" (entirely coincidentally, I assure you :))
I'm not entirely sure how my lunar cycle works, I just eyeball it. One thing though is a prophecy, should all moons ever be full for one full night, a cataclysm could befall the world, tearing it to pieces and quite possibly become an asteroid belt once all pieces settled.
 

Aexalon

Explorer
Xeriar said:
Orange dwarf parent I take it?

Keep in mind this is a much cooler star you're dealing with, though it will possibly be a flare star, which would have interesting consequences.
Binary, both low K spectral class, a maximum of 50Gm apart. Desired effects should include a more-or-less Sol-like luminosity (important for viability) at more-or-less 1Æ distance (to not get too close to the indeed possibly occasional erratic stars), but decreased year length due to increased primaries (total) mass. The exact details don't really matter though; the makeup of the moon are sufficiently metaphysical that focussing too hard on hard science would be somewhat silly.

Ok, some more exposition then:

The moon, currently bearing the working name Garden, bears much resemblance to the planet of the same name in Greyspace: a cluster of worldlets held together by a giant plant. Once a normal Mars-sized world -albeit infused with a Gaia-like spirit, a titan named Aiëde-, it has been on the run from an universe-consuming Evil, the Dreaming Dark, occasionally performing hyperspace jumps (ala Zonama Sekot in Star Wars) to stay out said Evil's reach.

However, during the last confrontation between Aiëde and the Dreaming Dark, ten thousand years ago, the world titan got infected / damaged by its enemy, and the hyperspace jump she performed to flee, failed (to a degree). What arrived in orbit around the jovian planet is merely a shadow of the former verdant world: a cluster of worldlets (each 100-500km big) held together only by the titan-become-worldtree, now no longer possessing physical form. The "hyperdrive malfunction" manifests itself in that all parts of Garden are thrown out of phase with eachother; each worldlet (or island) exists on its own, almost oblivious of the other islands co-orbitting the gas giant.

Phase transitions are easy to come by: all one needs to do is travel from one island to another (via airship or whatever other means), and as one approaches another worldlet, your phase slowly shifts from that of your island of origin to that of your destination worldlet. The entire point here is to prevent the sky of an island being filled with heaps of other islands, generating an enormously complex illumination situation. As a nice side-effect, each island could find itself having drifted (metaphysically) adjacent to alternate planes of existance (probably the outer ones, like the Abyss, but also more ephemeral ones like the realm of Faerie). The worldlets would most likely also be sharing a common atmosphere, with the phase variations taking care of the light attenuation problems resulting from hundreds of kms of normal-pressure atmosphere. Finally, one may presume spelljammer-type gravity in effect on the worldlets (also courtesy of the worldtree), so any iffyness on that regard is also avoided.
Anyway, all this is very setting-specific, and while I could prattle on and on about the merits of the entire setup, you see that science can only go so far in explaining Garden's current predicament. It should matter little if you consider the moon to be a garden-variety (eh eh ;)) jovian one, or the metaphysical marvel it is in the setting I'm involved with, as the questions posed only touch upon its day-night cycle as influenced by the hard-science parts of the system (i.e. the sun(s) and the planet).
Xeriar said:
Err, you're going to have a twin world sort of setup, here. Things that evolved facing the planet are going to be looking at things differently than things that did not. Keep in mind the planet is going to have a magnitude in the -20 range - it's going to supply a blue sky and light the world, though not warm it, any time the sun goes down. By the time it vanishes, the sun is coming back up. That side of the world is eternally lit, outside of eclipses, which will be spectacular.

The other side of the world will probably have a 20/40 sleep cycle or 15/45. Humans are usually geared to 7/17.5 or so, but I've seen no reason to think that couldn't scale up to quadruple that.

Both might use the same cycle, given the planet is likely a few hundred times dimmer than the sun, but still.
Indeed, as expected. Some fiddling with the albedo and/or the mass of the planet in question (a saturn-faximile will actually be bigger in the sky than a jupiter-faximile, for the same orbital period; if necessary, we could go all the way up to the brown dwarf stage, where the planet's own energy output starts growing faster than the apparent size reduction makes its reflective energy output shrink) might be needed to reduce its impact on the ecology of the planetward side of the moon; Also consider that the planet undergoes apparent phases of its own, making midnight brighter (the planet being full) than early night or late night (waxing / waning), to an observer who has it directly overhead.

This for me insinuated a possible 10-10-10-30 activity cycle for planetward-living cultures (where you're up all day, but also in the middle of the night, when the planet is full). Obviously, this is a complex behavioral pattern, and it's exactly because of that that I am soliciting additional ideas from you folks here.
Xeriar said:
Temperature extremes will likely be moderated by additional cloud cover - plankton on Earth play a powerful role in cloud formation and it would seem likely that your planet would have an even more developed mechanism, with, possibly, a very stormy world.
Temperature extremes are mitigated first because each individual island is rather small (not allowing much room for diversified climate zones), and secondly by the shared (if metaphysical) atmosphere.
Xeriar said:
Regarding how I'd use the rules, I tend to despise x/day abilities and such in general, so I won't comment much there.
Still something I need to deal with ;)
 

Aexalon

Explorer
Dannyalcatraz said:
I'd say that if the campaign races all evolved under those conditions, play should be basically unaffected- more of a "fluff" thing than a mechanical concern. Races from other planets, however, might be able to recharge their spells/powers/abilities much more rapidly (or more slowly) than the natives, since they're on a different "solar cycle."
As now explained in the above post, while the inhabitant have had ten thousand years to adapt, they're not exactly native to the long day situation. Then again, they're not entirely subject to evolution either ;)
Dannyalcatraz said:
For the implications of a much longer day, I can think of no better source than Isaac Asimov's short story, "Nightfall," expanded to novel length with the aid of Robert Silverburg. Its also a Bollywood movie- not too bad, all things considered.

It's kind of like the movie Pitch Black, but without the clash of humans and aliens...In a civilized world in a multiple sun & other body system with only one sentient species, full night only comes once every 1000 years. One of the "thriller" attractions at an amusement park in the story is a room which has no windows, so people can experience total darkness.

I will not ruin the book for you- suffice it to say that the short story is considered to be one of the best in the history of sci-fi.

But here is a link to some info about it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nightfall_(Isaac_Asimov)
Finished listened to a reading of the short story (Escape Pod #100) since starting the thread (one 12h eclipse every 2048 years, by the way). I had heard of it before but never got around to reading it myself until now. While indeed interesting, I can't have the inhabitants of Garden go bonkers every 30 hours ;)
 

Vrecknidj

Explorer
I'm no expert, but I'd imagine that if a planet with a 30-hour light followed by 30-hour dark system evolved over millions of years, that the anatomies of the critters thereon would have to reflect (pardon the pun) this.

On most of Earth, I'd wager, creatures that are, for instance, nocturnal and that live somewhere between, say, 30 and 60 degrees north of the equator, have sleep-wake cycles that are keyed to all kinds of environmental influences.

I know, for example, that a woman's body's melatonin levels have a huge impact on her ovulation cycle when she's nursing an infant. Women who nurse more at night have a significantly reduced chance of conceiving than women who don't nurse at night.

Whatever the differences would be on your world, there would, nevertheless, be some. And, given hundrends of millions (at least) of different plants, insects, etc., this will work out to all kinds of differences.

But, of course, to keep things simple, and since it's a fantasy game, I'd just gloss over differences as much as possible.

A few minor adjustments, such as sleeping creatures require 20 hours of sleep instead of 8 (20/60 = 8/24), would tend to keep things in check. But, even those are entirely open to change.

I really like the descriptions you've given. I'd love to play in that setting.

Dave
 


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