Worlds of Design: “Old School” in RPGs and other Games – Part 2 and 3 Rules, Pacing, Non-RPGs, and G

Worlds of Design: “Old School” in RPGs and other Games – Part 2 Rules, Pacing, and Non-RPGs For me, the difference between Old School and anything else is not in the rules, but in attitude, as described last time. Yet the rules, and the pacing, can make a big difference; parts 2 and 3.

Worlds of Design: “Old School” in RPGs and other Games – Part 2 Rules, Pacing, and Non-RPGs

For me, the difference between Old School and anything else is not in the rules, but in attitude, as described last time. Yet the rules, and the pacing, can make a big difference; parts 2 and 3.


“Old School Games have a lot of failure, more mediocre outcomes... and the brilliant stroke that suddenly feels astonishing because there is something there to contrast it with. New School Games are grey goo.” Jeffro

Last time I talked about some differences between “Old School” and newer approaches to RPGs, especially related to story. Here are some more.
[h=3]Rules[/h] The difference in “schools” is not about rules. Rules are not sacred, nor do they fit for every person. I think about rules in terms of game design. Occasionally choices designers make in games are arbitrary, one is as good as another. Some of these choices, the game designer(s) might want to change after publication, if they could. And over time, a game designer might make different choices for rules simply because tastes/trends change. For these reasons it makes no sense, to me, to adhere strictly to every rule in an RPG set.

Jeffro Johnson goes back to rules before AD&D (first edition as we tend to call it), or rules intended to substitute, such as Moldvay-B/X-Basic rules. So Jeffro says thieves must have d4 for hit points, because the rules he loves specify that.

I’m much more willing to vary from the original rules in order to make the game better (from my point of view, of course), so my thieves/rogues have d6s, can use bows (Robin Hood), and vary in other ways from the original rules. My 1e clerics can choose one of three types of sharp weapons (two-handers, one-handed swords, bow and arrow) and use those weapons as well as the blunt ones - because it’s better for the game. They can memorize twice as many spells as they can cast. And so on.

But a GM can make his game Old or New regardless of the actual rules. Some rules make it easier to tell stories (e.g. FATE). Simpler rulesets in general give the GM more freedom to tell stories, as there are fewer rules to get in the way of the story, and likely less “rules lawyering”.
[h=3]GM Role[/h] In terms of the two major conceptions of the GM’s role, the GM as rules arbiter and the GM as a sort of god, which works better for the storytelling that’s part of New School? I think rules arbiter is much less effective, as the rules can get in the way of the story. GM as rules arbiter tends to go with long rulesets (which more likely need an arbiter), and rules-heavy games get in the way of story-telling. Rules-light games ought to be better for GM storytelling. Players who don’t want the GM to control the story may prefer rules-heavy RPGs. These are tendencies, of course, not certainties, and likely there are counterexamples.
[h=3]Pacing[/h] Pacing is a big part of the difference between the two extremes. Good pacing (in novel and film terms) calls for alternating lows and highs, to make the highs that much more effective.

Old School recognizes that there will be not-very-exciting or even unpleasant/horrific adventures, to go with super-exciting and terrifically rewarding adventures. New School “evens it out”, ensuring that nothing will be unpleasant but also effectively ensuring that nothing will be terrific – because you can’t fail. “Loot drops” are boring when every monster has a loot drop. Boatloads of treasure become boring when you always get boatloads of treasure. “No one ever gets in serious trouble” is boring. In other words, the New abandons good pacing in favor of enabling “no negative consequences” or just “no losses”. You can certainly do that, but it sounds tedious to me.
[h=3]Non-RPGs, too[/h] This Old/New dichotomy can be seen clearly in board and card games as well. Such games have moved away from the traditional direct competition, and from high levels of player interaction, to parallel competitions that are usually puzzles (i.e., have always-correct solutions) rather than games (which do not have such solutions). Each player pursues his own puzzle down one of the "Multiple Paths to Victory," that is, following one of several always-correct solutions provided by the designer.

"As an Action RPG, the best thing about Torchlight II is the way loot, skill choices, and chance bubble over into a fountain of light and treasure at the whiff of a right-click, every single time, for as long as you can keep going." PC Gamer magazine, 2012

We see the difference in video games, too, but for commercial reasons those games have gone far into the New. To begin with, computers lend themselves to avatar-based "experiences" (forms of story) rather than games. Also, computer games of all types are far into reward (or at least, lack of negative consequences), having left consequence (Old School) behind some time ago. In other words, you’re rewarded for playing while not having to worry/take responsibility for the consequences of your own actions. (There are exceptions of course.) In the extreme, players will blame the game if they don’t succeed. If you make a free to play video game (a very common type now), practically speaking you MUST make it easy and positive so that players will stick around long enough to decide to provide you with some revenue via in-game micro-transactions.

(Editor's Note: We decided to add in Lew's third article, below, so it puts all of his points in context; please see my comment below).

Here are some Old/New School differences in actual gameplay.
[h=3]Strategy Over Tactics[/h] Military strategy (what you do before battle is joined) is de-emphasized in opposite-of-old-school games. Why?

  • Good strategy requires planning; tactics can become standardized, rule of thumb, easier
  • If the GM is telling a story, he or she wants players to follow the script, not devise their own ways of doing things overall (which is what strategy is all about)
Tactical games, on the other hand, are all about immediate fighting, what 4th edition D&D was built for, what many computer RPGs are built for because computers are at their best in tactics and worst in strategy.
[h=3]Hand-Holding[/h] Old School games are often about exploration, about finding/identifying the objectives. And recognizing when something about a location/opponent makes it too dangerous to take on right now.

Something like a secret door becomes a “dirty GM trick” instead of a challenge for the dungeon-delving skills of the party. “New” games are about being guided by the game (GM) to where the fight is, then fighting, then getting the loot. (You recognize the description of typical computer RPGs, especially MMO RPGs?)

In other words, the GM “holds the hands” of the players, guiding them rather than leaving them to their own devices. Every GM does this on occasion, but it’s the norm in the extreme of New School.
[h=3]What’s Important in Play?[/h] In Old School, it’s the success of the party that counts, much more than the success of the individual. This is a “wartime” attitude now quite uncommon in the USA, but common amongst the Baby Boomer wargamers who originated RPGs. In the extremes of the newer school, it’s the individual that counts (e.g. as expressed in “All About Me” RPGs), not the group. This makes a huge difference in how people play the game.
[h=3]Sport or War?[/h] I talked about this in an earlier column (RPG Combat: Sport or War?). To summarize, in war everything is fair, and stratagems – “a plan or scheme, especially one used to outwit an opponent” - are the ideal. If you get in a fair fight, you’ve screwed up: fair fights are for suckers. That style puts a premium on intelligence-gathering and on strategy. Combat as sport looks for a fair fight that the players will just barely manage to win, often as managed by the GM. Combat as War is less heroic, but it’s a lot more practical from the adventurer’s point of view. And for me, a lot more believable. If a fight is truly fair, you’re going to lose 50% of the time, in the long run. That’s not survivable.
[h=3]Nuance[/h] There are lots of “in-betweens”, of course:

  • What about a campaign where the party can suffer a total or near wipeout, but someone has left a wish with a reliable soul who can wish away the disaster. They can fail (lose), but most or all of them will survive.
  • What about the “All About Me” style I wrote about recently? Usually, there is no possibility of failure, but a GM could put a little failure into the equation if they wished.
  • What about the campaign where everyone knows their character is doomed to die, likely before reaching (in AD&D terms) 10th or 11th level? Then glory (and a glorious death) often becomes the objective.
  • What about the campaign where characters normally survive, but when someone does something egregiously stupid or foolish, the character can die?
  • You can hand-hold players to the point of combat, and still make that combat deadly.
RPGs can accommodate all kinds of tastes. But we don’t have to like every kind, do we?

This article was contributed by Lewis Pulsipher (lewpuls) as part of EN World's Columnist (ENWC) program. You can follow Lew on his web site and his Udemy course landing page. If you enjoy the daily news and articles from EN World, please consider contributing to our Patreon!
 

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Lewis Pulsipher

Lewis Pulsipher

Dragon, White Dwarf, Fiend Folio

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
So, it does get problematic talking about old school vs new school when old school is often all over the bloody place in terms of what the actual play expectations are.

Yep.

That's why this discussion would probably be better formatted as, "What did you like about 'Old School' play?" Followed by an honest assessment of whether that experience was really a common element, and whether supposedly "New School" games do not/cannot provide it, sans pre-judgments.

Good luck getting that, though.
 

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Jay Verkuilen

Grand Master of Artificial Flowers
An equally compelling, and possibly stronger, argument could be made for the opposite viewpoint. That we should use how the games were actually played, rather than intended. AD&D was rarely run 'as intended'. In 40 years, I have never run into a group that ran by the book initiative. Yet, most of the AD&D groups I have played with over the years had most of the OS characteristics I outlined in my earlier post.

I very much agree with this. Lots of new games were explicitly built to handle some perceived deficiency of D&D. Rolemaster, for instance, started out as a set of "advanced" rules that were pretty clearly to be added to D&D for players looking for a more detailed set of rules. It became a game in its own right. I'm not familiar with the Rifts family of games much, but they are fairly clearly D&D derivatives. I've mentioned the business side, too, and I think it bears remembering: Back in the day, TSR was known as They Sue Regularly for a reason. Many game rule innovations happened because designers needed to deviate enough to avoid a tort.
 
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Jay Verkuilen

Grand Master of Artificial Flowers
This is probably one of the biggest issues when talking about AD&D - AD&D was very, very schizophrenic when it came to the writing. <...> So, it does get problematic talking about old school vs new school when old school is often all over the bloody place in terms of what the actual play expectations are.

Very good set of points. EGG was a real pill for "official" some days---the infamous DMG1E intro being a good example---and other days was much more "make it up yourselves!" on other days. I do think it's fairly clear that most OSR type games I've looked at seek to emulate BECMI D&D more than Advanced.
 

jasper

Rotten DM
Yep.

That's why this discussion would probably be better formatted as, "What did you like about 'Old School' play?" Followed by an honest assessment of whether that experience was really a common element, and whether supposedly "New School" games do not/cannot provide it, sans pre-judgments.

Good luck getting that, though.
Better luck would be to drop the beep of "old school" and "new school". Since the both were happening back in late 70s, and early 80s. I would prefer "Game School" vs "Story School". And also separate the argument between D&D and other games.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
I agree with Umbran. We can't discuss NS D&D as if it is the same as other NS games. This has caused confusion and arguments on this thread, for sure.

Thinking just about D&D, we need to send the game to middle school. 1e and 2e are not old school. They are too rules dense, and both editions strongly discourage house rules, lest the unwary GM brings the whole game tumbling down. It makes sense. Gygax wanted a ruleset which would be consistent no matter where you played.
That might have been what he wanted, but it wasn't what he got.

Is there anyone out there - anyone - who played non-RPGA 1e by RAW?

Gygax, despite his stated desire to have everyone playing the same game, gave us a wonderfully modular system just perfect for tweaking and kitbashing to suit a particular table or playstyle by any DM willing to spend the time - and many were. And oddly enough, I suspect this malleability helped make the game overall more popular rather than less.

It was also there to support tournament play.
And, later, the RPGA and organized play; a conflict in design requirements that still plagues the game today.

Having said this, D&D hadn't shed all of its old school roots. It still relied on player skill over character skill, and was usually played as a series of obstacles that clever players could overcome. You were expected to bring your A game, not play out your own character's flaws and foibles. This was the period of heavy simulation, which spanned about two decades.
I wouldn't go so far as to say "heavy" simulation, if only because there's so many ways simulation can be enhanced even in 1e. But at least there was a nod toward simulation.

2e started focussing more on story. The kit books gave players more control over character choice. The end of 2 e foreshadowed what was coming in 3rd, as the game morphed into NS. NS gave players more choices, but like in Advanced, there was an expectation rules would be followed. Story began to become more and more important, and character skill became more relevant than player skill. 4e tended to be less story driven, although some players have found it can be used to be more story driven. Players continued to be central, even being able to plot out their own heroic destinies, and choose preferred treasure. 5e is seeing a bit of return to old school, with a looser ruleset, and a more streamlined system. It has lightly borrowed from NS games outside D&D.

So, OD&D, and basic/expert are old school. 1st and 2nd are middle school, and 3rd - 5th are NS. I feel adding that middle bridge helps define the editions better.
I see late-era 2e and early 3e as middle school.

Aldarc said:
Indeed, the basic idea in the emboldened sentence has arguably been the prevailing trend of RPG design of the past 1-2 decades, even among some OSR games. This feature has a practical purpose. It's simply easier to teach new players one basic mechanic (or guiding principle) than two or more. And the less that you have to teach the game, the quicker that the players can immerse themselves in the game.
This is very true...as far as it goes.

But after people have learned the game there comes a time where a unified mechanic morphs from a feature into a bug. It main feature - ease of learning - is no longer required as the learning phase has passed, bringing the bug part to the fore: having too many aspects of the game shoehorned into the unified mechanic, aspects that would have been better served by having their own unique means of doing what they do.

Now if these unique mechanics are placed or forced mainly to the player side (a NS thing, at least in D&D) this can become a headache for the players; but if the mechanics are kept on the DM side (as per OS) then only one person per table has to do the heavy learning while the rest just need to know some of it.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
I find that... largely irrelevant in its classification.

Especially when one of the major forces in the community at that time was Dragon Magazine, which contained a lot of house rule choices. The message becomes mixed - "DOn't use house rules, but here are some house rules for you to use!" And the effect... was heavy house ruling.
Part of the problem was that TSR at the time was often using Dragon to float trial balloons for potential new ideas or classes or rules or whatever in order to gauge public acceptance. Some of those ideas later ended up in UA while others never saw the light of day again...except at those tables where the DM had seen the original article and adopted it into her own game. Hence, a growing differentiation between tables.
 


billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
That might have been what he wanted, but it wasn't what he got.

Is there anyone out there - anyone - who played non-RPGA 1e by RAW?

Non-RPGA games by RAW? Who ever saw even an RPGA game that was devoted to 1e strictly by RAW?!? Not me!
 

Hussar

Legend
I don't really think we can ignore the cargo cult nature of gaming in the 70's and 80's. In the stone ages of pre-Internet :)D) my group, your group and Bob's group over there had no real way of communicating unless we were physically in the same room.

Thus we get such a huge variance between tables. And that leads to everyone thinking that their particular table was "the way the game was played" back in the day. The problem being, it really wasn't.

I mean, take the idea of a group having one DM. I've never actually had that. When we started, we all took turns DMing and whoever was DMing that adventure simply faded their PC back into NPC status for the duration. We never had the whole "DMPC" issue because we were all DM's.

It wasn't until years late, talking to people on places like En World that I found out that this was a really weird way of playing. That apparently a lot of groups only had one DM.

But, again, how common was it? Was single DM groups the way things mostly were or did groups take turns DMing? I don't know. All we generally have is anecdote and that doesn't really tell us all that much. So the whole "old school" and "new school" thing becomes really problematic because whatever school you belong to probably has more to do with whatever cargo cult you belonged to back in the day.
 

This is probably one of the biggest issues when talking about AD&D - AD&D was very, very schizophrenic when it came to the writing. You had Gygax saying one thing in the DMG, then presenting something completely different in modules (treasure distribution is a good example here - the DMG talks about keeping the players poor but Gygax modules were absolutely chock a block with treasure). Is the DM a neutral arbiter or is the DM antagonistic? Well, depends which chapter of the DMG you happen to read that day. :D So on and so forth.
.

Honestly people should read the 1E DMG for themselves and decide, rather than take poster's words for it on the internet. My attitude toward the book is it is an engaging read, with a strong personality, and offers up all kinds of good advice to pick through. The value it had for me, was I was genuinely struggling trying to find a satisfying way to approach the game at a certain point in the early 2000s. I just was not happy with the mainstream GM advice at the time, and frustrated by many of the modules adventure guidelines for the game. Reading the 1E DMG is what knocked me out of that. You don't have to read it and take in everything, you can pick and choose what works for you. But the enthusiasm in the book is infectious and the advice I personally found very helpful (even if I wasn't running AD&D at the time).
 

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