Worlds of Design: “Old School” in RPGs and other Games – Part 2 and 3 Rules, Pacing, Non-RPGs, and G

Worlds of Design: “Old School” in RPGs and other Games – Part 2 Rules, Pacing, and Non-RPGs For me, the difference between Old School and anything else is not in the rules, but in attitude, as described last time. Yet the rules, and the pacing, can make a big difference; parts 2 and 3.

Worlds of Design: “Old School” in RPGs and other Games – Part 2 Rules, Pacing, and Non-RPGs

For me, the difference between Old School and anything else is not in the rules, but in attitude, as described last time. Yet the rules, and the pacing, can make a big difference; parts 2 and 3.


“Old School Games have a lot of failure, more mediocre outcomes... and the brilliant stroke that suddenly feels astonishing because there is something there to contrast it with. New School Games are grey goo.” Jeffro

Last time I talked about some differences between “Old School” and newer approaches to RPGs, especially related to story. Here are some more.
[h=3]Rules[/h] The difference in “schools” is not about rules. Rules are not sacred, nor do they fit for every person. I think about rules in terms of game design. Occasionally choices designers make in games are arbitrary, one is as good as another. Some of these choices, the game designer(s) might want to change after publication, if they could. And over time, a game designer might make different choices for rules simply because tastes/trends change. For these reasons it makes no sense, to me, to adhere strictly to every rule in an RPG set.

Jeffro Johnson goes back to rules before AD&D (first edition as we tend to call it), or rules intended to substitute, such as Moldvay-B/X-Basic rules. So Jeffro says thieves must have d4 for hit points, because the rules he loves specify that.

I’m much more willing to vary from the original rules in order to make the game better (from my point of view, of course), so my thieves/rogues have d6s, can use bows (Robin Hood), and vary in other ways from the original rules. My 1e clerics can choose one of three types of sharp weapons (two-handers, one-handed swords, bow and arrow) and use those weapons as well as the blunt ones - because it’s better for the game. They can memorize twice as many spells as they can cast. And so on.

But a GM can make his game Old or New regardless of the actual rules. Some rules make it easier to tell stories (e.g. FATE). Simpler rulesets in general give the GM more freedom to tell stories, as there are fewer rules to get in the way of the story, and likely less “rules lawyering”.
[h=3]GM Role[/h] In terms of the two major conceptions of the GM’s role, the GM as rules arbiter and the GM as a sort of god, which works better for the storytelling that’s part of New School? I think rules arbiter is much less effective, as the rules can get in the way of the story. GM as rules arbiter tends to go with long rulesets (which more likely need an arbiter), and rules-heavy games get in the way of story-telling. Rules-light games ought to be better for GM storytelling. Players who don’t want the GM to control the story may prefer rules-heavy RPGs. These are tendencies, of course, not certainties, and likely there are counterexamples.
[h=3]Pacing[/h] Pacing is a big part of the difference between the two extremes. Good pacing (in novel and film terms) calls for alternating lows and highs, to make the highs that much more effective.

Old School recognizes that there will be not-very-exciting or even unpleasant/horrific adventures, to go with super-exciting and terrifically rewarding adventures. New School “evens it out”, ensuring that nothing will be unpleasant but also effectively ensuring that nothing will be terrific – because you can’t fail. “Loot drops” are boring when every monster has a loot drop. Boatloads of treasure become boring when you always get boatloads of treasure. “No one ever gets in serious trouble” is boring. In other words, the New abandons good pacing in favor of enabling “no negative consequences” or just “no losses”. You can certainly do that, but it sounds tedious to me.
[h=3]Non-RPGs, too[/h] This Old/New dichotomy can be seen clearly in board and card games as well. Such games have moved away from the traditional direct competition, and from high levels of player interaction, to parallel competitions that are usually puzzles (i.e., have always-correct solutions) rather than games (which do not have such solutions). Each player pursues his own puzzle down one of the "Multiple Paths to Victory," that is, following one of several always-correct solutions provided by the designer.

"As an Action RPG, the best thing about Torchlight II is the way loot, skill choices, and chance bubble over into a fountain of light and treasure at the whiff of a right-click, every single time, for as long as you can keep going." PC Gamer magazine, 2012

We see the difference in video games, too, but for commercial reasons those games have gone far into the New. To begin with, computers lend themselves to avatar-based "experiences" (forms of story) rather than games. Also, computer games of all types are far into reward (or at least, lack of negative consequences), having left consequence (Old School) behind some time ago. In other words, you’re rewarded for playing while not having to worry/take responsibility for the consequences of your own actions. (There are exceptions of course.) In the extreme, players will blame the game if they don’t succeed. If you make a free to play video game (a very common type now), practically speaking you MUST make it easy and positive so that players will stick around long enough to decide to provide you with some revenue via in-game micro-transactions.

(Editor's Note: We decided to add in Lew's third article, below, so it puts all of his points in context; please see my comment below).

Here are some Old/New School differences in actual gameplay.
[h=3]Strategy Over Tactics[/h] Military strategy (what you do before battle is joined) is de-emphasized in opposite-of-old-school games. Why?

  • Good strategy requires planning; tactics can become standardized, rule of thumb, easier
  • If the GM is telling a story, he or she wants players to follow the script, not devise their own ways of doing things overall (which is what strategy is all about)
Tactical games, on the other hand, are all about immediate fighting, what 4th edition D&D was built for, what many computer RPGs are built for because computers are at their best in tactics and worst in strategy.
[h=3]Hand-Holding[/h] Old School games are often about exploration, about finding/identifying the objectives. And recognizing when something about a location/opponent makes it too dangerous to take on right now.

Something like a secret door becomes a “dirty GM trick” instead of a challenge for the dungeon-delving skills of the party. “New” games are about being guided by the game (GM) to where the fight is, then fighting, then getting the loot. (You recognize the description of typical computer RPGs, especially MMO RPGs?)

In other words, the GM “holds the hands” of the players, guiding them rather than leaving them to their own devices. Every GM does this on occasion, but it’s the norm in the extreme of New School.
[h=3]What’s Important in Play?[/h] In Old School, it’s the success of the party that counts, much more than the success of the individual. This is a “wartime” attitude now quite uncommon in the USA, but common amongst the Baby Boomer wargamers who originated RPGs. In the extremes of the newer school, it’s the individual that counts (e.g. as expressed in “All About Me” RPGs), not the group. This makes a huge difference in how people play the game.
[h=3]Sport or War?[/h] I talked about this in an earlier column (RPG Combat: Sport or War?). To summarize, in war everything is fair, and stratagems – “a plan or scheme, especially one used to outwit an opponent” - are the ideal. If you get in a fair fight, you’ve screwed up: fair fights are for suckers. That style puts a premium on intelligence-gathering and on strategy. Combat as sport looks for a fair fight that the players will just barely manage to win, often as managed by the GM. Combat as War is less heroic, but it’s a lot more practical from the adventurer’s point of view. And for me, a lot more believable. If a fight is truly fair, you’re going to lose 50% of the time, in the long run. That’s not survivable.
[h=3]Nuance[/h] There are lots of “in-betweens”, of course:

  • What about a campaign where the party can suffer a total or near wipeout, but someone has left a wish with a reliable soul who can wish away the disaster. They can fail (lose), but most or all of them will survive.
  • What about the “All About Me” style I wrote about recently? Usually, there is no possibility of failure, but a GM could put a little failure into the equation if they wished.
  • What about the campaign where everyone knows their character is doomed to die, likely before reaching (in AD&D terms) 10th or 11th level? Then glory (and a glorious death) often becomes the objective.
  • What about the campaign where characters normally survive, but when someone does something egregiously stupid or foolish, the character can die?
  • You can hand-hold players to the point of combat, and still make that combat deadly.
RPGs can accommodate all kinds of tastes. But we don’t have to like every kind, do we?

This article was contributed by Lewis Pulsipher (lewpuls) as part of EN World's Columnist (ENWC) program. You can follow Lew on his web site and his Udemy course landing page. If you enjoy the daily news and articles from EN World, please consider contributing to our Patreon!
 

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Lewis Pulsipher

Lewis Pulsipher

Dragon, White Dwarf, Fiend Folio

Jay Verkuilen

Grand Master of Artificial Flowers
I don't know that you need mechanics through.

Oh certainly, you don't need mechanics. As I said "a skilled DM". ;)

Again, my view is, it works fine without manipulating the pacing and feels right in play for me (whether it is D&D or any game that takes the route of not baking pacing into the system---I'd quibble here though and say when it comes to combat, there is a natural sense of pacing baked into many editions of D&D because of the nature of things like Vancian casting).

IMO Vancian casting is one of the biggest sources of pacing issues in D&D. It more than anything contributes to the "five minute workday". It's really challenging to have D&D not have a frequent rest cycle that is very driven by when the PCs run out of spells. The designers have tried over and over to try to break the "five minute workday" and have really never succeeded, which tells me that the underlying premises of the game don't let it happen.

Don't get me wrong---I'm not looking for all my games to have the relentless pace feel of an action movie. I don't at all mind that there's a feeling of danger, exploration, etc., and this totally fits in one of my favorite campaign styles. But if you want a TTRPG to have the feel of an action movie, D&D isn't really the engine for it.

But a lot of people seem perfectly content to have the GM take a stronger hand in pacing and they mostly seem to be having fun.

Certainly true, although there are lots of folks who complain about railroad DMs and the like, too, and players are routinely asking for rests.
 

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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
As much as I tend to disagree with them, those articles drive traffic every time they go up.

Yes, well, you can always get people to come and watch a train wreck, right?

So, we then have a few questions we can ask (we don't have the site statistics to answer them, but Morrus should).

1) Are people coming by, reading Pulsipher's articles, and then ignoring the discussion? If they are, then the primary value is probably the author or article itself.

1a) Are there better sorts of articles that would generate similar traffic?

2) Are people reading the articles, and then continuing to read or engage in the discussion? Then the primary value is the discussion, and any article that generates discussion would do.

2a) Does the article have to be a rhetorical wreck to get people to engage with it?
 

Jay Verkuilen

Grand Master of Artificial Flowers
Yes, well, you can always get people to come and watch a train wreck, right?

So, we then have a few questions we can ask (we don't have the site statistics to answer them, but Morrus should).

Heh, yes.



1) Are people coming by, reading Pulsipher's articles, and then ignoring the discussion? If they are, then the primary value is probably the author or article itself.

Pretty sure the answer there is no.


1a) Are there better sorts of articles that would generate similar traffic?

No idea.

2) Are people reading the articles, and then continuing to read or engage in the discussion? Then the primary value is the discussion, and any article that generates discussion would do.

2a) Does the article have to be a rhetorical wreck to get people to engage with it?

I don't think so. Thought provoking doesn't need to be a train wreck.

My feeling is that the articles that generate a lot of discussion are ones that are provocative in some way. For instance, the Mike Mearls on 4E article generated a ton of discussion.
 
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Yes, well, you can always get people to come and watch a train wreck, right?

So, we then have a few questions we can ask (we don't have the site statistics to answer them, but Morrus should).

1) Are people coming by, reading Pulsipher's articles, and then ignoring the discussion? If they are, then the primary value is probably the author or article itself.

1a) Are there better sorts of articles that would generate similar traffic?

2) Are people reading the articles, and then continuing to read or engage in the discussion? Then the primary value is the discussion, and any article that generates discussion would do.

2a) Does the article have to be a rhetorical wreck to get people to engage with it?

My two cents is this is a gaming forum. I don't expect rhetorical perfection in every article. I expect a spectrum. Some articles will essentially be leaning more on the opinion side than others, and expressing views that have weaknesses in them. I don't particularly see a problem with that if the discussion is good. And the discussion is as good or bad as we make it IMO. Frankly, I think if you skip past the more extreme posts, there are people in the thread on both sides of the aisle making interesting points.
 

IMO Vancian casting is one of the biggest sources of pacing issues in D&D. It more than anything contributes to the "five minute workday". It's really challenging to have D&D not have a frequent rest cycle that is very driven by when the PCs run out of spells. The designers have tried over and over to try to break the "five minute workday" and have really never succeeded, which tells me that the underlying premises of the game don't let it happen.

I find if you do run settings as a living world, where there is more push coming from the setting itself, you have a lot fewer five minute workdays. For them to do that, the GM has to allow them to rest in peace. But I've also found, a lot of players simply don't like resting all the time just so they can be fully loaded. I've been in games where I've let my spells get dangerously low because we are pushing to get through to the end (remember there is also the out of game pressure of "we have to end the session at 5").
 

Shiroiken

Legend
I don't think Lewpuls would consider co-op as a "game" due to it lacking a versus component. That would be, in his terminology as I recall it a "puzzle." I'm still not sure how he squares the circle of "military squad" style play and "group success" for "versus" in a game like D&D unless the versus is DM to players.
To be fair, I'm also not a fan of full co-op games. Most suffer greatly from quarterback syndrome, where one player dictates the optimal action for everyone. The good ones (IMO) either have limited knowledge, such as Hanabi or Ghost Stories, or have time/chaos restrictions that keep quarterbacking from working, such as Space Alert. I personally favor semi-cooperative games, such as Battlestar Galactica, Dead of Winter, and Shadows over Camalot, where there is a traitor mechanic that keeps things interesting.

Yeah, definitely. I haven't recently but used to play a good bit of Carcassone and the first thing we noticed when playing it was that there were a lot of blocking moves. One of the best ones was to force another player to make a road we called "New Jersey"---a pointless circle that went nowhere.
The most common conflict I've seen in Carcassone is the farm battles. You build farmers near the big farm that someones working on, then add a tile to connect them, either sharing the points or (if you're lucky and evil), taking them completely. Sharing castles in a similar way is also a good strategy, but taking full control usually isn't worth the effort.

Many others have said this before, but the OP is full of unhinged from reality generalizations. It's a cri de coeur of "You darned kids, Get Off My Lawn!"
I'm a "get off my lawn" kinda guy myself, and I'm willing to admit that I don't understand the appeal of certain aspects of New School gaming. I don't like them, don't use them, and generally don't play in games that do. While I feel people that do are nuts, they should be free to play however they want to. You do you game, and I'll do mine (and never the twain shall meet :D ).
 

Jay Verkuilen

Grand Master of Artificial Flowers
To be fair, I'm also not a fan of full co-op games. Most suffer greatly from quarterback syndrome, where one player dictates the optimal action for everyone. The good ones (IMO) either have limited knowledge, such as Hanabi or Ghost Stories, or have time/chaos restrictions that keep quarterbacking from working, such as Space Alert. I personally favor semi-cooperative games, such as Battlestar Galactica, Dead of Winter, and Shadows over Camalot, where there is a traitor mechanic that keeps things interesting.

Any good coop game really needs to put in things that push the clock and make it hard to keep things going. We recently played Pandemic, which was a lot of fun and long ago I played a good bit of Arkham Horror.


I'm a "get off my lawn" kinda guy myself, and I'm willing to admit that I don't understand the appeal of certain aspects of New School gaming. I don't like them, don't use them, and generally don't play in games that do. While I feel people that do are nuts, they should be free to play however they want to. You do you game, and I'll do mine (and never the twain shall meet :D ).

Heh. I too have my preferences and can go "get off my lawn!" on a lot of things WotC's been doing lately, but I'm open to trying some new things. I really don't like a total chugga-chugga Chattanooga choo-choo type game where the story keeps me on rails and I don't much care for a "chosen one" type game either. On the other hand, very sandbox type games can really leave the PCs flailing around and I generally like something bigger than just killing stuff and taking loot. A more railroad type story works better for something that's supposed to be short. I find it frustrating over the course of a whole campaign, which is one reason I don't like APs.
 

I

Immortal Sun

Guest
As much as I tend to disagree with them, those articles drive traffic every time they go up.

Sure, if you're selling clickbait. Which is one reason many newspapers have kept an Op-Ed section, and also why many sources of news have dramatically gone downhill in the digital age: because they're more interested in getting "clicks" (since many ad-providers pay per-view or per-click) than providing real newsworthy material.

I wouldn't mind Lew so much if he was relegated to the "op-eds" section of EnWorld. Sure, there's a lot of other good articles, but Lew is a pretty regular writer (at least judging from how many articles he's written and the time-spacing between them). And every one of his articles reads like this. So, I have to kind of assume that on some level, whoever is "putting together the paper" so to speak, wants this kind of yellow journalism to be a strong component of it.

And if he's really just supposed to be an op-ed kinda guy, maybe we could get a whole section for that? Even the papers try to pick out 3-4 different opinions, often with divergent points of view on the same issue. Which IMHO at least, would be kinda cool.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
My two cents is this is a gaming forum. I don't expect rhetorical perfection in every article.

That's okay. I don't expect perfection, either. I just expect higher minimum standards than this work meets, especially for paid work.

This wasn't just another forum post, it was a featured article. There should be a difference in quality.
 
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Aldarc

Legend
I don't know that you need mechanics through. Again, my view is, it works fine without manipulating the pacing and feels right in play for me (whether it is D&D or any game that takes the route of not baking pacing into the system---I'd quibble here though and say when it comes to combat, there is a natural sense of pacing baked into many editions of D&D because of the nature of things like Vancian casting). But a lot of people seem perfectly content to have the GM take a stronger hand in pacing and they mostly seem to be having fun.
Most mechanics are rarely "needed," but they are helpful for facilitating various modes of play. I would not necessarily say either that NSRPGs are about GM-manipulated pacing either. One of the big recommendations for what makes a good Fate game, for example, is that it works best with proactive characters:
Fate doesn’t come with a default setting, but it works best with any premise where the characters are proactive, capable people leading dramatic lives.
This is one of the three pillars of player play: proactivity, competence, and drama. Then it later expands this in its discussion on Proactivity:
Characters in a game of Fate should be proactive. They have a variety of abilities that lend themselves to active problem solving, and they aren’t timid about using them. They don’t sit around waiting for the solution to a crisis to come to them—they go out and apply their energies, taking risks and overcoming obstacles to achieve their goals.

This doesn’t mean that they don’t ever plan or strategize, or that they’re all careless to a fault. It just means that even the most patient among them will eventually rise and take action in a tangible, demonstrable way.

Any Fate game you play should give a clear opportunity for the characters to be proactive in solving their problems, and have a variety of ways they might go about it. A game about librarians spending all their time among dusty tomes and learning things isn’t Fate. A game about librarians using forgotten knowledge to save the world is.
The point is that the players should drive the action, story, and pacing through their characters. Overall, this description suggests to me that pacing is intended to be more player-oriented than GM-oriented.

Likewise, in Blades in the Dark, the crew of players decides when they engage with a score, downtime, and their next plans of action. They determine flashbacks. The major issue of pacing from the GM-side of things generally entails the countdown clocks, which will trigger further consequences, dangers, and complications. These are often "living world" issues. The rules also state that the countdown clocks do not tick unless the players engage them.
 
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