• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

D&D 3E/3.5 Worst 3.5 rule from core books?

Shin Okada

Explorer
Well, I am not saying that wizards needed more power. It is just that spell-book system was not a good way to balance-out an arcane spellcasting class against divine casters. The system was so heavy as a rule-set and too complex, and depend largely on time and wealth a wizard can have.

It seems that WotC had noticed this point and created spontaneous arcane casters who know all spells in limited class spell-list. Warmage, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer and such. And in later campaign books such as Red Hand of Doom, almost no wizard opponents were seen, and they recommended spontaneous arcane casters (including Sorcerer) over wizard for PCs, too.

Regarding comparison against fighters, at higher level, fighters will find that they cannot simply buy magic items of appropriate strength even in the biggest city, due to gold cost limit. So they must either contact with magic item creator and let them make items they want or beg other PCs to create items. So it will take much time to get each items.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

StreamOfTheSky

Adventurer
Regarding comparison against fighters, at higher level, fighters will find that they cannot simply buy magic items of appropriate strength even in the biggest city, due to gold cost limit. So they must either contact with magic item creator and let them make items they want or beg other PCs to create items. So it will take much time to get each items.

Yup. Just another way to keep warriors strong early and casters gimped, only to reverse later on. Early on, any equipment you could want is easily found, but the time and gp cost of learning spells is obscene. Higher levels, fighter can't find +5 full plate at ye olde gap, and the wizard's got his blessed book.

EDIT: The wizard's got his blessed book, tucked away on his self-created pocket plane that only he can access.
 

Jhulae

First Post
That hasn't been the official fluff since about 2nd edition, give or take. The 3.X fluff is that the Wizard mostly casts his spells during preparation, and stops them in an almost-complete state - a spot in the ritual where he can leave it hanging, minus the last few words and gestures, and finish it later. The majority of his casting is done in that hour of preparation after rest.

Where's that fluff from? It certainly doesn't match the crunch. If that were the case, then all spells would be standard actions (or faster) to cast since they were 'stopped at an almost complete state'. Many spells have casting times of full round, one round, or longer.

Heck, Identify has a 1 hour casting time. How can *that* be rectified with being 'stopped at an almost complete state'? If *1 hour* is almost complete, there'd be no way you should be able to prepare Identify along with other spells in just 'one hour' of prep time.
 

airwalkrr

Adventurer
No mechanical penalties for not sleeping.

Technically true, but only if you sit still and do nothing. If you walk around town for 8 hours, you have to make a forced march roll to continue for the 9th unless you sleep for at least six hours.

But yea, I could sit around in the D&D world and order take-out and never get up from my seat and never get tired.
 

Kylas

Explorer
Where's that fluff from? It certainly doesn't match the crunch. If that were the case, then all spells would be standard actions (or faster) to cast since they were 'stopped at an almost complete state'. Many spells have casting times of full round, one round, or longer.

Heck, Identify has a 1 hour casting time. How can *that* be rectified with being 'stopped at an almost complete state'? If *1 hour* is almost complete, there'd be no way you should be able to prepare Identify along with other spells in just 'one hour' of prep time.
You could easily explain the fluff for spells that take longer to cast. In your example the basics of readying Identify take up part of the hour prep time. But since the spell can't predict what your going to identify the actual spell casting ritual incorporates indicating the type of item, and other things specific to what your identifying. Though I see your original point I think this rule is generally ok, especially in terms of game balance.
 

green slime

First Post
Does the Fighter have to pay the shopkeep to try on the armor before he can buy it? (fee for use of spellbook)

Not sure if you noticed, but the fee isn't to actually look at the spell book (comparisson: try armour out in the shop), but to copy propriety knowledge. Knowledge for wizards is a premium resource.

Does the Fighter have to limit himself to buying one piece of gear a day? (can only copy one spell a day)

Nothing prevents the wizard from purchasing more spells. So this comparison is completely irrelevant.

It just takes some time, & effort to learn and write the mystical knowledge. I don't have a problem with this. A fighter has to spend a feat to learn exotic weapons. So the 5th level fighter goes to fighter academy, trains for 6 years, and still fails to master the Qualzerk Flamberge. But, woe, alas & alack, the rules allow the poor wizard to spend some cash and a little time to learn his tools.

Does the Fighter have to pay money to "attune" his body to his gear, every single piece, and even when he's merely increasing the bonus on one of his items? (paying for the ink of spells)

Que?!? Fighter has to purchase every single piece of weaponry and armour he owns. Even "merely" increasing the sword's +4 bonus to +5. Not exactly sure what point you are trying to make here...

Does the Fighter have to pay a fee for holding onto items that exceed his body slots, even though he's not currently using them? (buying multiple spellbooks)

But multiple spellbooks are hardly comparitive to body slots, surely? In what way is this a fair comparison?!? The fighter has to pay for reserve weapons, in case his primary weapon gets sundered, lost, stolen, disintegrated, rusted, disarmed. But ultimately, it is a player choice.

Can the Fighter's precious gear be stolen, either all of it or several pieces in a grouping, by a single theft attempt? Can they be destroyed with laughable ease? Of course, you can spend a feat to retain the benefit of a fraction of your total gear if something should happen to it, but why do that? That's just encouraging the DM to mess with your gear. (stealing or destroying a wizard's spellbook, the "convenience" of spell mastery feat as an option)

Yes! A fighter can definitely have his gear stolen, sundered, disintegrated, disjuncted, dispelled, plane shifted, rendered, rusted,.....

And yes, the fighter may choose to take feats that mitigate the effect of lost gear.

Your questions aren't really serious, are they? Or not really thought all the way through.

Different strokes for different folks. Some people find resource management very interesting and fun challenge: Managing what spells to memorise, what spells to learn, how much money and time to spend on obtaining new knowledge, versus producing new items. Others don't.

Those that don't, should really stick to the spontaneous spellcasters, IMO. There are a large number of very flavourable ones available.
 

StreamOfTheSky

Adventurer
Not sure if you noticed, but the fee isn't to actually look at the spell book (comparisson: try armour out in the shop), but to copy propriety knowledge. Knowledge for wizards is a premium resource.

Ok. If I hand over the weapon I made to you, created with all my special forging techniques and my own metal alloy blend, that's some premium technology right there. What if you use that piece to make copies of my work and put me out of business? I should probably charge a fee on top of the item expense and put in a "class action lawsuit" rainy day fund, just in case.

It's silly that there's a fee to share spell knowledge. Obviously it shouldn't be "free," but this seems more of an RP thing to me. Someone wants to learn fireball? Big deal, not like me saying no will prevent him from learning it. He wants to learn a spell I researched myself? Umm...not so sure, there. And if the wizard is someone I know and trust, why do I need to charge him? What if we trade a few spells known each? A hard fee should be the last resort if nothing else makes sense. Not the standard.



Nothing prevents the wizard from purchasing more spells. So this comparison is completely irrelevant.

It just takes some time, & effort to learn and write the mystical knowledge. I don't have a problem with this. A fighter has to spend a feat to learn exotic weapons. So the 5th level fighter goes to fighter academy, trains for 6 years, and still fails to master the Qualzerk Flamberge. But, woe, alas & alack, the rules allow the poor wizard to spend some cash and a little time to learn his tools.

Actually, your comparison is irrelevant. The wizard could buy some scrolls and add them in over time, sure. But if the Fighter wants to get a shield, sword, AND hemp rope all in one day (the nerve! /sarcasm), does he have to wait for three days to pass before he can use them all? Seems kind of dumb to me. And for the last time, WIZARD IS OVERPOWERED. I don't argue that. I'm not saying they need a helping hand. The system for adding spells that is in place now, in terms of limiting power, is just a minor inconvenience in any campaign, unless you're playing in a game where every second counts, action is nonstop, and you're lucky to have time to sleep let alone get "down time." I suppose then the rules for adding spells would actually limit power, but in a game like that most people would avoid playing a wizard anyway.

Que?!? Fighter has to purchase every single piece of weaponry and armour he owns. Even "merely" increasing the sword's +4 bonus to +5. Not exactly sure what point you are trying to make here...

And the wizard has to pay for every spell he adds. But that's not enough. He needs "special" ink to actually add it to his book. Does the Fighter need to buy something in order to equip the gear he just bought? That was the comparison I was making.

But multiple spellbooks are hardly comparitive to body slots, surely? In what way is this a fair comparison?!? The fighter has to pay for reserve weapons, in case his primary weapon gets sundered, lost, stolen, disintegrated, rusted, disarmed. But ultimately, it is a player choice.

And the wizard needs to learn extra spells beyond the 2/level he gets for free to cover all the utility stuff the party expects out of him. In this case, the Fighter just buys different weapons for different DR, back up equipment, etc... and that's the end. The wizard not just buys the spells, but has a premium amount of spell book space to store it till he pays for a blessed book. So, to compare body slots and extra stuff to prepared spells and extra ones not in use, the Fighter's only really limited to how many rings, amulets, bracers, etc... he wants to carry by weight. The wizard has to fit all his extra stuff in his book(s). And there is no ability I've seen short of Mordenkainen's Disjunction (aka, "the nuclear option") that destroys or takes away as many pieces of gear from the fighter as can be done to the wizard's available spells just by burning or stealing a single book in one single action.



Your questions aren't really serious, are they? Or not really thought all the way through.

I think it's kind of silly to compare Fighter gear to wizard spells. I'm only half-serious, but you decided to make the comparison, so I figured I'd use it to argue against you. I probably could have saved myself all the typing by just telling you from the start that your argument wasn't really thought all the way through instead of entertaining it and making my case, but that seemed like it'd be rude and not particularly helpful. What do you think?

Different strokes for different folks. Some people find resource management very interesting and fun challenge: Managing what spells to memorise, what spells to learn, how much money and time to spend on obtaining new knowledge, versus producing new items. Others don't.

And you can do this without all that stupidity with any prepared caster other than wizard/wu jen/anything else I'm forgetting with a spellbook. Except for the balancing time between making items and learning part, although if you enjoy researching new spells you can even get that experience with other classes. I don't mind balancing resources and time. I do mind the unfathomable circus you go through as part of that, though.

Those that don't, should really stick to the spontaneous spellcasters, IMO. There are a large number of very flavourable ones available.

There are. But you shouldn't need to play a spontaneous arcanist to avoid the headaches you never deal with when playing a divine prepared caster. Like I argued by taking the theory to its logical extreme: making a class just plain annoying to play as is NOT a good way to balance its powers.
 

Shin Okada

Explorer
One of the fastest and cheapest way to get more spells is to kill NPC wizard and rob his spellbook. A wizard can prepare spells directly from some other wizard's spellbook by making spellcraft checks. It was so in the previous editions, too. I remember the days my chaotic wizard (and his friend elf) in chromatic DnD were killing all the wizard NPCs he met.:)
 

frankthedm

First Post
One of the fastest and cheapest way to get more spells is to kill NPC wizard and rob his spellbook. A wizard can prepare spells directly from some other wizard's spellbook by making spellcraft checks.
Not so.

Spellbooks
A wizard must study her spellbook each day to prepare her spells. She cannot prepare any spell not recorded in her spellbook, except for read magic, which all wizards can prepare from memory.


Now if one Only looks at the spellcraft skill, It seems that a wizard could do this...

Spellcraft
DC15 + spell level Prepare a spell from a borrowed spellbook (wizard only). One try per day. No extra time required.

But the relevant text in the Magic Overview chapter explains the situation fully.

Wizard Spells and Borrowed Spellbooks
A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell she already knows and has recorded in her own spellbook, but preparation success is not assured. First, the wizard must decipher the writing in the book (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Once a spell from another spellcaster’s book is deciphered, the reader must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level) to prepare the spell. If the check succeeds, the wizard can prepare the spell. She must repeat the check to prepare the spell again, no matter how many times she has prepared it before. If the check fails, she cannot try to prepare the spell from the same source again until the next day. (However, as explained above, she does not need to repeat a check to decipher the writing.)


Though one of the Arcane magic splatbooks introduced a way to Master another wizards spellbook.
 

Shin Okada

Explorer
But the relevant text in the Magic Overview chapter explains the situation fully.

Wizard Spells and Borrowed Spellbooks
A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell she already knows and has recorded in her own spellbook, but preparation success is not assured. First, the wizard must decipher the writing in the book (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Once a spell from another spellcaster’s book is deciphered, the reader must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level) to prepare the spell. If the check succeeds, the wizard can prepare the spell. She must repeat the check to prepare the spell again, no matter how many times she has prepared it before. If the check fails, she cannot try to prepare the spell from the same source again until the next day. (However, as explained above, she does not need to repeat a check to decipher the writing.)


Hmm, I didn't notice that part. So a burrowed spellbook is only good as a spare spellbook.

It seems to be a strange concept. So a wizard actually "know" or "don't know" a certain spell. Until today, I have been thinking that except for cantrips, wizard don't actually "know" spells and the only difference is if he has a spellbook with those spells or not.
 

Remove ads

Top