Worst 5th party member

[Thanee]

Not true here. Enervation requires a touch attack, and mid level monk will have the best touch AC in the game, and those high level spells are shrugged off. Monks save like nobodies business.

If the monk can save any of the above-mentioned spells, then I wholeheartedly agree, that their saves are the best!

Area effect spells don't work either, since the monk has evasion and probably the best Ref save.

True. Area effect spells, like fireball, are useless against monks (unless you hit them with Otto's first).

So that leaves bashing, and the mage just can't do that, so nothing stops the monk from kicking him in the head.

Never seen a buffed-up wizard in combat, I suppose...

Limited Wish (Persistant Divine Favor), Greater Magic Weapon, Polymorph, Haste, Tenser's Transformation... oh yes, the mage can bash! Add in Shield, Mage Armor, False Life, Mirror Image, Displacement, Stone Skin, etc and he can take it as well! But it's better to use a longbow (and another GMW) anyways, riding on a Phantom Steed as you can move and still full attack at the pesky little critter trying to follow you with his miserable 90' base move...

Bye
Thanee

 

[Storminator]

If the monk can save any of the above-mentioned spells, then I wholeheartedly agree, that their saves are the best!

I have an elven monk with a Will save of +23. If only that were his good save.

True. Area effect spells, like fireball, are useless against monks (unless you hit them with Otto's first).

Hit with Otto's first... if you can touch me. Touch AC of 36

Never seen a buffed-up wizard in combat, I suppose...

Only every day.

Limited Wish (Persistant Divine Favor), Greater Magic Weapon, Polymorph, Haste, Tenser's Transformation... oh yes, the mage can bash! Add in Shield, Mage Armor, False Life, Mirror Image, Displacement, Stone Skin, etc and he can take it as well! But it's better to use a longbow (and another GMW) anyways, riding on a Phantom Steed as you can move and still full attack at the pesky little critter trying to follow you with his miserable 90' base move...

Bye
Thanee

Even after all those buffs, I'll still have a better attack and a better AC, and likely more hp as well. Go ahead and cast Stoneskin, . I dare you. And the Phantom Steed trick? Dimension Door, grapple...

So far, I've been able to take the fight to the mage every time, and every time I do, the mage does NOTHING but try to get me off his ass. But that's my game, yours may be different.

PS

 

[frankthedm]

I guess stereotypical half-orc barbarians who invariably rage, charge and get themselves killed are perhaps the least useful IME.

Except when the DM pulls punches not to kill pcs and this type of tard gets to reap the rewards of idiocy.

The x2 power attack damage with 2 handed weapon lets this character be even more viable

Fire shield is so nice when the monk has to be reminded this is not Dungeons and Dragonballs.

 

[JayOmega]

I run a PBeM with 3 rogues (and nothing else!). And yup, flanking monstrosity. If they get the jump on someone (not too hard, with all those sneak skills) they can rip down a foe quickly.

The constructs they ran into kicked their tail tho.

The rogues were all built at the same time, and they have a pretty fair diversity of skills. One has a level of barbarian and another has a level of sorcerer to add a bit more to the mix, but mostly its just a rogue group. Heck of a lot of fun, too.

PS

Wow, I'm not the only one? The "core characters" (read: the ones who show up all the time) in my game are 3 rogues. They've got a cleric follower/love-interest, and temporary cleric & fighter NPCs as guides through a dwarven mine. The occasional characters, in order of how-often-they-show-up, are a monk (played by the 8-year-old son of one of the "rogues"), a paladin (a.k.a. "the bait"), a very-occasional wizard, and a barbarian who shows up so seldom that he usually needs to gain two free levels every time just to keep up.

One of the rogues is also Fighter 1/Shadowdancer 3, and another just took her first level of thief-acrobat. The third is pure rogue. All have insane Hide/Move Silently/Tumble scores, two have always-on movement magic, and the third has a Bag of Flanking Partners (er, Bag of Tricks) so it's a special occasion when they don't get flanking bonuses and sneak attacks. But yes, the constructs and undead do give them a bit more trouble than usual.

ObOnTopic: No party with a melee rogue will think having a Monk in the group is a bad thing. High mobility + decent AC + tumble skill = lots of flank attacks. If the rogue is a missile-type, then the Monk isn't nearly as much help, and would be the least-optimal 5th character. As mentioned before, they're two-trick ponies: mage-killer, and "speedy guy" to run down fleeing enemies.

With the basic F/W/C/R party, I'd say "barbarian" is the wrong choice for a 5th member, in general. Lots of hit points, lighter armor, melee character, rage, and bonus speed (first into melee; everyone's target in the first round) means lots of cleric spells used on Cure Barbarian Wounds spells. Any party with a Barbarian needs two healers, or the Cleric is going to get really bored.

 

[Sanackranib]

. . .
So far, I've been able to take the fight to the mage every time, and every time I do, the mage does NOTHING but try to get me off his ass. But that's my game, yours may be different.
PS

Do mages in these games never take spells like levitate or fly?

 

[S'mon]

Except when the DM pulls punches not to kill pcs and this type of tard gets to reap the rewards of idiocy.

That's a very good point - if the DM is the creampuff kind and doesn't kill PCs, the barbarian's massive offense is great. In my games they just seem to die, though.
It occurs to me that if the PCs aren't at real risk of death, the ultra-survivalist Monk's abilities are also somewhat useless - not dying is their forte. Hmm....

 

[LuYangShih]

The main complaint I see about Barbarians is really a complaint about playstyle. Charging recklessly with no regard for personal safety will get any character killed. Barbarians who do not play this way are some of the best characters to have in a party.

 

[Darklone]

Can't say that many barbarians in our group died quick. Sure, they get hit. But full Power Attack, Cleave (sometimes he missed Great Cleave) and Rage took care of too many opponents very fast.

The good mobility usually took him somewhere on the battlefield where the fighter would have loved to be and where he dished out a lot of damage (cleaving through the line of enemy archers and wizards) while the fighter got bashed down by the enemies tanks.

As for the monk... yes, wizards do fly. Monks sometimes too. It's called Jump

Worst 5th level char ever? Another fighter or sorcerer. The sorcerer will get killed fast since the frontliners can't protect him. Another fighter will make the group even more immobile and standing toe to toe if the fight goes bad is deadly.

 

[Thanee]

I have an elven monk with a Will save of +23. If only that were his good save.

Even a +100 save doesn't help, if you don't get one!

Hit with Otto's first... if you can touch me. Touch AC of 36

That's a lot (is that including defensive fighting and expertise?)... but nothing a quickened True Strike can't handle!

Even after all those buffs, I'll still have a better attack and a better AC, and likely more hp as well.

Now that's something I seriously doubt (except for the hp probably)!

Go ahead and cast Stoneskin, . I dare you.

What's wrong with Stoneskin? It's a good spell unless you enter really high level play, where even monks have +5 weapons!

And the Phantom Steed trick? Dimension Door, grapple...

You can't dimension door, grapple. After changing locations your action ends. And even if you would grapple the mage, he will simply use dimension door to free himself.

But that's my game, yours may be different.

Must be it!

Bye
Thanee

 

[hong]

Around level 12 everyone that wants them can buy Boots of Flying. Tends to even things out. I'd say that the Paladins ineffectines in your group made the Monk look better than normal.

In our games the monk proved incredibly hard to kill, but also got nothing done. Flurry of Blows quickly became Flurry of Misses.

It's one of life's little ironies that the most useless class in the wuxia-clone that is high-level D&D is the wuxia-inspired class....