"Worst" non-core party?

[mzsylver]

Sudden Strike

I always thought that since ninjas could turn invisible at the drop of a hat (though a limited number of times per day), their sudden strike could come into play really often.

The problem with Sudden Strike is that it is so easily negated. Many creatures have blindsight/blindscense/tremorscense/screw the ninja ability or can See Invis/True Seeing/etc. With the rogue, at least you can sometimes still flank to get the added damage.

Diviners are great mages - you only have to ditch ONE school for a bonus spell per level- that in and of itself is amazing. There are many good diviniations that many wizards take at every level so you might as well get it for free (See Invis, Arcane Sight).

Scouts can be a good tank if they are fighter/dervish/champions of correllon. Then again, it's hard to suck if you are a dervish (but I'm sure a swashbuckler could do it).

 

[pawsplay]

I just don't understand the Hexblade hate. Good BAB, mettle, d10s, buff spells, miss chance versus projectiles, bonus feats... And then there's their signature ability, a supernatural power that can take an enemy from bruiser to loser in one go. There's one class where you never have to worry if Ability Focus is worth it or not.

 

[Particle_Man]

I just don't understand the Hexblade hate. Good BAB, mettle, d10s, buff spells, miss chance versus projectiles, bonus feats... And then there's their signature ability, a supernatural power that can take an enemy from bruiser to loser in one go. There's one class where you never have to worry if Ability Focus is worth it or not.

Good BAB, d10s, miss chance vs. projectiles, all good!

Mettle...somewhat useful. Note that Hexblades have poor Fort saves, so we are really talking about the stuff that Will saves work against (Inflict, Slow, a few others). Speaking of which, a warrior type with a bad save vs. poisons is not going to have many long-term prospects of survival, without a healer nearby.

buff spells...could be ok, but by the time they get them, magic items can do many of the same things. Mirror Image is cool though, and Hound of Doom is nice. Note that they get very few spells, though. And their caster level is abyssmal. I note that you don't mention the long list of non-buff "Save or else" spells Hexblades get. The reason why those spells are so bad? Bad save DCs.

Bonus Feats...AWFUL! Because the pool from which you pick them from is the narrowest of any class, ever. Note that the great majority of them are to make very crappy saving throws a little less crappy. And note that many of the Hexblade save or else spells are illusions (and now abjurations, with Complete Mage). Neither of those schools are given as "spell focus bonus feats" in this limited, limited, sadly limited pool of feats.

Hexes: Not nearly enough of them per day, and even the unofficial way to get more (a Dragon article feat) only give one extra use per feat. If this is their signature ability, then their pen needs a lot more ink. Heck, given that an opponent that makes their save is safe from a hex for 24 hours, there is no reason not to make the Hex ability "at will", and then give Warlock-like "shaping" abilities to the hex at higher levels.

Hexblades are cool flavour wise, but crunch wise are simply sub-par, without a little house ruling (my DM lets my choose bonus feats from the Reserve Feats in Complete Mage and from the feats in that Dragon article listing Hexblade feats).

 

[pawsplay]

Good BAB, d10s, miss chance vs. projectiles, all good!

Mettle...somewhat useful. Note that Hexblades have poor Fort saves, so we are really talking about the stuff that Will saves work against (Inflict, Slow, a few others). Speaking of which, a warrior type with a bad save vs. poisons is not going to have many long-term prospects of survival, without a healer nearby.

With a decent Con, mettle is still useful, and their saves vs. poisons aren't likely to come up very often... my philosophy tends toward "all mirror image, all the time."

buff spells...could be ok, but by the time they get them, magic items can do many of the same things.

What's your point? Magic items can do, well, anything. That's like saying, what's the point of Hide and Move Silently, when magic items can do the same things? It's still a useful ability.

Mirror Image is cool though, and Hound of Doom is nice. Note that they get very few spells, though.

How many are they going to cast?

And their caster level is abyssmal. I note that you don't mention the long list of non-buff "Save or else" spells Hexblades get. The reason why those spells are so bad? Bad save DCs.

Bonus Feats...AWFUL! Because the pool from which you pick them from is the narrowest of any class, ever. Note that the great majority of them are to make very crappy saving throws a little less crappy. And note that many of the Hexblade save or else spells are illusions (and now abjurations, with Complete Mage). Neither of those schools are given as "spell focus bonus feats" in this limited, limited, sadly limited pool of feats.

Illusion should be included. But here's the thing, those bonus feats do exactly what you said they do. A Hexblade is not a spell-flinger, first and foremost; this is a Complete Warrior class, after all. But the spells are useful, especially if you use them on a cursed opponent, to whom "crappy DC" is a relative term.

Touch of idiocy does not allow a saving throw... hexblades get it.... full BAB... very nice.

Hexes: Not nearly enough of them per day, and even the unofficial way to get more (a Dragon article feat) only give one extra use per feat. If this is their signature ability, then their pen needs a lot more ink. Heck, given that an opponent that makes their save is safe from a hex for 24 hours, there is no reason not to make the Hex ability "at will", and then give Warlock-like "shaping" abilities to the hex at higher levels.

Hexblade's curse, at will, is one of the scariest things I can imagine. Allow each and every foe to save against taking a -6 on saving throws, every day? Yeah, right. And remember: no SR, it's supernatural.

Hexblades are cool flavour wise, but crunch wise are simply sub-par, without a little house ruling (my DM lets my choose bonus feats from the Reserve Feats in Complete Mage and from the feats in that Dragon article listing Hexblade feats).

I disagree. Hexblades are a very solid class. They could use some more support, true, but who couldn't?

 

[Particle_Man]

With a decent Con, mettle is still useful, and their saves vs. poisons aren't likely to come up very often... my philosophy tends toward "all mirror image, all the time."

Unless you lose initiative, of course. Or get dispel magic cast on you (remember, your caster level SUCKS). Or are out of spells because you have so few a day and have been casting them "all the time" as you say.

What's your point? Magic items can do, well, anything.

My point is that wizards and clerics get the spells early enough that they can use them when they don't yet have the magic items. By the time a hexblade gets these spells, the magic items should be relatively easy to make, buy or find unless you are specifically going for a "magic items are rare" campaign.

But the spells are useful, especially if you use them on a cursed opponent, to whom "crappy DC" is a relative term.

Note that it would be far more useful to curse the opponent and then have your cleric/druid/wizard/sorceror/other full caster buddy cast higher-level spells with MUCH better save DCs (indeed this "anti-bard" ability of the Hexblades is one of the things I actually like about it). The Hexblade's own "save or else" spells pale in comparison, even with the bonus feats, compared to your full caster companions.

Touch of idiocy does not allow a saving throw... hexblades get it.... full BAB... very nice.

Unless the enemy has SR in which case..."very not happening, because I have a crappy caster level".

Hexblade's curse, at will, is one of the scariest things I can imagine. Allow each and every foe to save against taking a -6 on saving throws, every day? Yeah, right. And remember: no SR, it's supernatural.

1) The penalty is -2 until 7th level and -4 until 19th(!) level. So suddenly it got less scary.
2) Apparently Bestow Curse is either not scary to you? Or are Warlocks beyond your imagination? Because Warlocks can Bestow Curse at will, if they choose this invocation, starting at 6th level for a -4 penalty (1 level before the Hexblade, who at this point can do a massive 2 curses a day). Furthermore, the Warlock can try to curse the same person again if the person made their will save last round. The Hexblade is down to "warrior in light armor" status if his opponent makes their wills save, because they don't get a second chance to hex the guy (and have few hexes in any case). A cleric with a wisdom bonus of +3 can cast the spell twice a day at 5th level (again, at the same person if necessary). And this is meant to be the signature ability of the Hexblade? They are not even the best at it, either in frequency or (until 19th level) in penalty level. It is nice that it beats SR and that it is a free action, but that is not enough to make it the reason we call the guy a Hex-blade.

I disagree. Hexblades are a very solid class. They could use some more support, true, but who couldn't?

Solid is a relative term, apparently. I don't mind playing a Hexblade, but they are definitely weak.

 

[Jhulae]

Warrior: Swashbuckler, Fighter/Paladin/Kensai, Ranged Ranger/Rogue/Order of the Bow Initiate, Totemist.

Healer: Ranged Ranger/Rogue/Order of the Bow Initiate with a wand of cure mod. Potions.

Arcanist: None

Rogue: None, really, as the only person with rogue levels had no ranks in disable/open locks.