WotBS WOTBS#2 Planning the FINAL BATTLE

[Daern]

I would like to start this thread to discuss ideas and experiences with the ultimate battle in the Fire Forest module. There are two options, a battle on the shore with Vuhl and Tragedy, or an underwater battle with Ogres and Indomitability, with the like addition of Kazyk.

It turns out I'm going to run the Indomitability battle so that's what I'm thinking about:
How to adjudicate and play out underwater combat?
How to utilize Deception? (Perhaps I should use Vuhl instead?)
When to introduce Kazyk?

Other ideas/experiences?

 

[Morrus]

4E or 3.5?

Water combat in 4E is much simpler than 3.5 - not much different to land combat. That fight tends to be a surface battle anyway - Indomitability is racing toward the shore and the Seela.

As for Kazyk - totally depends on your game so far! Kazyk didn't feature in my final battle. My suggestion would be to hold him back as a second wave and introduce him at the most dramatically aesthetic point. Or complicate things - put him on the shore hurting the Seela while the heroes are battling Indomitablity in the water. Suddenly they have to prioritize and make decisions!

 

[kumagroo]

I did bring in Kazyk and had him beating on Seela. Here's the problem: if your players are remotely experienced, they will slay Indomitability in under 3 rounds. My players, using dailies and action points, did it in 1 and a half (he got 1 turn), even though I allowed Indomitabilty to use his super-move in the water. Admittedly, they are an optimized party and a striker got a critical in the first attack, but Indomitability's powers were weak sauce and he was bloodied after two hits.

With Indomitability pinned, everyone positioned themselves around him. Solo-skirmishers are generally not as good as solo-brutes or controllers, and a solo-skirmisher with no mobility, followed by water travel...well, you get the picture...The fight against Vuhl earlier was MUCH better and way more climactic. I'd honestly bring him into it if he isn't dead, and then I'd add some sort of teleportation power for the trillith that acts as an immediate interupt when getting hit that transports Indomitabilty to somewhere else. Hindsight is beautiful and I see now that I could've easily made it a better fight by amping up the fiery stag with some nice teleporting. (I mean he is elemental-like and the party have seen his likeness appear to talk to them so he knows the forest.)

If your PC's have no sense of strategy, maybe it won't be a problem. Or maybe if you're playing 3.5, it will be moot. I love WotBS but the one flaw so far has been that the solos have been getting hosed quite easily (Flaganus Mortus died in two rounds, Indomitability in 1...)

 

[Morrus]

With Indomitability pinned, everyone positioned themselves around him.

See, in that position I'd have had Kazyk attacking the Seela already. They can surround Indomitablity, sure, but they have to make a moral choice to ignore Kazyk.

The whole final encounter plays so differently from group to group depending on the setp and the adventure before. But I agree that an optimized party allowed to surround Indomitability and attack it with impunity will make short work of the encounter. Perhaps we should have added more advice, but we're so wary of creating "play-by-numbers" adventures that we try really hard to leave so much room for the DM to run things rather than the adventure text. I guess sometimes we could point out more options and advice in a sidebar or something; we just don't want to tell you what to do.

(Flaganus Mortus died in two rounds

Ah, to be fair he's not supposed to be all that tough. He's a moral lesson and an introduction to "this saga ain't all black and white".

 

[Daern]

Thanks for the responses! Those are good ideas. Introducing Kazyk causing havoc with the Seela is a go for sure.

Having Vuhl attack Timbre before and is a good idea as well.

As for finishing off Indomitability, how is it supposed to work? Why can't they just coup de gras while he's pinned?

In general I have been playing with stats and beefing up monsters, and I was planning on doing the same with this one.

 

[Daern]

we try really hard to leave so much room for the DM to run things rather than the adventure text.

Hey, its definitely an advanced DM's module. No worries. However, today RPing the Seela Village, I was wishing for some sort of cheat sheet...

 

[Daern]

So, yes, I'm running it in 4e, and the rules are simple, but I'm still thinking about how to make it make a little bit of sense as far as people swimming underwater in armor...

Another thing to think about: My players accepted Indomitability's offer and received his boon. If they free him and then attack, he should revoke his boon, right? Perhaps there should be consequences, such as loss of healing surges from accumulated smoke and system shock. Is d4 surges too harsh?

 

[Bercilak]

d4 surges seems a bit harsh since spending 8 hours in the forest only causes 1 surge loss. (Although the rules on page 32 about the effects of the forest, and the ones on page 6 don't seem to exactly match up, so maybe d4 isn't too bad.) Seems like an Endurance check would be a good call. Maybe DC 30 and you lose 1 surge for every full 10 points you fail by would tie into the PCs stats a bit more.
--Berc

 

[sfedi]

I like a lot Morrus' advice.

But I have the same issue as Durn, why can't she be Coup de Graced.
Or why can they kill her if Anyariel failed?

In my campaign not only will Kazyk be present, but some Trillith that escaped from the portal in Remains of the Day (rescuing Khadral). I used Fell Taints for them.