WotBS WotBS #5 - Dumb NPCs

[Imban]

I'm on WotBS #7 now, so it's a bit late for this, but in #5 and elsewhere, I've noticed some NPCs were just... plain dumb.

Caela in #5 is a good example. I can't figure out her motivation for trying to piss off the party so that they go to the forbidden valley and kill her - it just seems stupid, because I couldn't see anything she stood to gain from that except a short lifespan.

Earlier on, though it's not their fault per se, the party also comes across a bunch of "peaceful" Ragesian soldiers. The party didn't see much reason not to just slaughter a bunch of them and cart off their stuff, either. The only reason I could come up with was that it would hurt Balance if they did, but that would just skip half of the plotline of the chapter because of a basically unrelated choice - and given that the party managed to skip most of #4 by singing the Song of Forms in the king's court with Nina Glibglammer still there, I didn't really want to do that two chapters in a row.

There are plenty of well-written scenarios in War of the Burning Sky, but I found this scenario to be relatively lacking, and was wondering how it went for other people.

 

[RangerWickett]

I don't know if things changed between 3.5 and 4, but my recollection of Monastery was that Caela was a) performing experiments in the forbidden valley, b) nervous about the strange magic afflicting the town below, and c) worried that the PCs would find out what she's up to and reveal her activities (as well as Pilus's) to Longinus.

What did you perceive as being dumb on her part?

As for the peaceful Ragesians, I thought it was stated that if they were attacked, they would break out of their enforced peace to defend themselves. I suppose the PCs could have stealthily snuck around and killed every Ragesian without any of the rest noticing, but if someone spotted people murdering his buddies, that would be enough to snap him out of his trance.

Plus, taking violent action should be hard for the PCs, since Balance's power affects them too.


As for adventure 4, if the PCs did manage to out Madness early, she could easily flee in the confusion, and then just continue to screw with Steppengard's head discreetly. The PCs would find it easier to convince people the king was being manipulated, but that wouldn't help much when Madness convinces the already-mentally unstable monarch that the PCs are trying to trick him, and are insulting him by calling him crazy. Still, yeah, it definitely would force some changes in the assumed plot.

 

[Imban]

I don't know if things changed between 3.5 and 4, but my recollection of Monastery was that Caela was a) performing experiments in the forbidden valley, b) nervous about the strange magic afflicting the town below, and c) worried that the PCs would find out what she's up to and reveal her activities (as well as Pilus's) to Longinus.

What did you perceive as being dumb on her part?

At least in my game, while there had certainly been hints dropped that things were going on in the forbidden valley, I don't think there was anything except the innate curiosity of player characters that would have led them there after the large Ragesian attack, rather than back to the Monastery to work out their alliance and then out of the chapter.

At that point, mind you, all that the players knew about the forbidden valley was that A) it is forbidden and B) some of the previous group from Seaquen was never heard from again after going there.

Then Caela sent invisible stalkers to ninja the party's psion, which of course caused the party to stomp down the valley and kill her. Whoops?

As for the peaceful Ragesians, I thought it was stated that if they were attacked, they would break out of their enforced peace to defend themselves. I suppose the PCs could have stealthily snuck around and killed every Ragesian without any of the rest noticing, but if someone spotted people murdering his buddies, that would be enough to snap him out of his trance.

It was stated as such - the problem wasn't in their lack of ability to defend themselves as much as the lack of motivation for leaving the enemy soldiers be, despite how the module seemed to be expecting that the players would.

As for adventure 4, if the PCs did manage to out Madness early, she could easily flee in the confusion

Well, they also killed her. There was a good bit of fleeing in the confusion and a lot of "Guards guards!" but they still managed to pull it off.

So, well, hey. Now the PC are hailed as heroes, and also never allowed within sight of the ruler of any country unless disarmed, surrounded by armed guards, and possibly in chains too. Reasonable safety precaution.

 

[EugeneZ]

I wanted to return to this thread once I got a good read of #5 in, since it felt like Imban's core issues were never addressed. If there's truly some stupid NPCs here, I'd like to resolve that before running them. I've found NPCs in Burning Sky to be one of the highlights and want to keep the standard high.

At least in my game, while there had certainly been hints dropped that things were going on in the forbidden valley, I don't think there was anything except the innate curiosity of player characters that would have led them there after the large Ragesian attack, rather than back to the Monastery to work out their alliance and then out of the chapter.

I'm assuming you're playing the 3.5 version since #7 isn't out (though some people are doing their own conversion, so you never know). I don't have that one in front of me, but I just read the 4e version and there are several options given for getting the PCs to the forbidden valley.

The first, for some reason, is abducting a party member. I think the idea was less "oh, those pesky PCs!" (because as you say, the PCs are not actually anti-Caela at the time) and more the idea that Caela has been kidnapping people at random, and for the purpose of drama it happens to be a PC.

However, depending on how it's handled, it could be a crappy meta move for the player. No one likes being captured via script, especially when his allies don't suffer the same fate. Surely this reason alone should be enough to not recommend this option first.

At that point, mind you, all that the players knew about the forbidden valley was that A) it is forbidden and B) some of the previous group from Seaquen was never heard from again after going there.

(B) should be enough to warrant investigation when the PCs feel they have no better leads. But, hey, I can see them not going for it. So from a design perspective, then it's Caela's turn to take action. Your assumption here is she knowingly targets the PCs. Since she's just capturing random people for experimination, I don't see why you think this.

Besides, if you don't like the idea of abducting a PC, the module also recommends either capturing a sympathetic NPC (such as a child), or simply having Eril ask them to investigate it.

Then Caela sent invisible stalkers to ninja the party's psion, which of course caused the party to stomp down the valley and kill her. Whoops?

Regardless of which of these three options, or one of your own, you use, Caela's motivations are not targeting the PCs directly.

It was stated as such - the problem wasn't in their lack of ability to defend themselves as much as the lack of motivation for leaving the enemy soldiers be, despite how the module seemed to be expecting that the players would.

I don't see how this makes NPCs stupid. Well, I do, but not in the way you mean, I think. Balance is, yes, making the Ragesians "stupid" in sense. But that's the entire point: besides the motivation of not wanting to attack a huge enemy force for no reason, there's no reason to do ANYTHING with the Ragesians other than wonder what's causing this lack of activity on their behalf.

 

[Kaisoku]

Re: Reasons to go to the Forbidden Valley

In adventure 5, you start everything off with a meeting with Simeon talking about how they've lost contact with people who were sent to the monastery.

Granted, their mission is to prevent ragesia from laying waste to the monastery, however it shouldn't be a surprise that Seaquen people went missing from there.

Once you get there, there's a lot of info given. After trying to get to the monastery once, Balance should be able to give them some hard to understand info, but what Bechus tells them about what they discovered about the "wind magic" being similar to that which caused the hurricane at Seaquen should be a massive tip-off.
Over and above "the last Seaquen people thought there was something up over there, and then never came back".

The scene where someone gets kidnapped to provoke them into going is really a last resort. The notes say to not use it if the party is motivated enough.

Personally, having played through it as a player, I think it was the "magic similar to what caused the hurricane at Seaquen" that made us want to head over there asap.
I don't recall anyone getting kidnapped at all, so our DM at the time must have felt we were motivated enough.


Re: Ragesians

I guess it depends on the group you are playing with. Seeing people of normally opposing forces working together should be a giant tip-off that "something just ain't right here".

The DC 25 Will save to perform hostile actions should be a massive hindrance to actually causing a scene until it's a good time.
Which means your players would have to be fairly lucky (roll high on their Will save) and be bound and determined to kill Ragesians before finding out why they are acting so strange.

A short meeting with Balance gave our group a sense of "don't disturb anything, we might set off a bloodbath here".

I guess, yeah, if your players are jerks, or just have this massive hate-on for Ragesians that they can't hold back a little to find out what's up first, then you might have to accelerate things a little bit.

No need to play the Ragesians as stupid though. Once they get attacked, they'll fight back. And then you get to describe as every Ragesian within sight of your actions suddenly breaks free and starts beating up the innocent people around them. Way to go PCs.


Re: Madness as Nina Glibglammer

How freakin' paranoid are your players? Seriously!

There's really no hint at all that this character is a trillith. At worst you could assume that she's a caster trying to get that guy to confess while on a witch hunt. Probably behind the stuff going on... but a trillith? Why?

The last time anything to do with trilliths was around was Indomitability. There's a whole adventure between the two trilliths. A long one at that.
My first time around (playing, not DMing), the group had forgotten to even use the song when we were facing the creature and knew what it was. What... do your players start singing the song at every suspicious new NPC they see?

Plus.. .the first time you see her, she's in the middle of an interrogation for the court, with a pile of people around you. Start singing anything and people are going to shush you and guards might come to ask you to leave.

Since it's a bardic performance, you pretty much have to sing it "out loud" so the trillith can hear it.
Just think what it would look like if you went into a courtroom today and started singing loudly while they are in the middle of a cross examination.
People around you would try to interrupt you to get you to stop making a scene so they can see what happens next, and "the bailiff" (guards) would come to forcibly remove you.

Finally, the Song of Forms, when sung at a trillith possessing a body, simply locks it into that body. It doesn't hurt them or reveal them.... so.. I'm not sure how singing the song in the first encounter with Nina would do anything except cut the scenario short and simply piss off Steppengard even more, before you get the chance to try your diplomacy.

Madness is a tough cookie all on her own, and would give a party of lvl 7s a run for their money (CR 11 vs four lvl 7s is getting into TPK territory).
Finally, getting away from the PCs is as simple as a Mislead spell. The song doesn't prevent magical abilities, it just keeps her form corporeal.
Even then... "corporeal" for Madness is still a bit off, what with non-euclidean shape and all. 20% automatic miss chance even when corporeal.

It's too late now... obviously, but you might want to curb back a little on what the song can do to them. It's not some kryptonite that makes them easy to kill... it simply allows you to get it's boon and allows you to prevent them from just going incorporeal and leaving.

 

[Morrus]

- and given that the party managed to skip most of #4 by singing the Song of Forms in the king's court with Nina Glibglammer still there, I didn't really want to do that two chapters in a row.

Did you change the way the Song of Forms works? Because I can't see how it would have had any effect in that situation. It doesn't detect or harm trillith.

 

[Rechan]

Glibglammer? Glibglammer? She's a gnome, isn't she.

 

[EugeneZ]

Did you change the way the Song of Forms works? Because I can't see how it would have had any effect in that situation. It doesn't detect or harm trillith.

That certainly did not seem to be the intent or the writer, or else I, too, horribly misunderstood things. Several places in Banquet mention Nina's reaction to the Song of Forms, most tellingly this one:

She does
not take on a substantial form, and if the heroes
think to sing the Song of Forms she flees in a
panic, terrifying the guards in the tent above
as her monstrous serpentine form squeezes
its way out of the bunker.

This implies, strongly, that the Song of Forms is Nina's weakness (just as her stat block says "Vulnerable Song of Forms"), and that the song reveals her true form. Furthermore, this has by far the best dramatic effect, as clever PCs will realize Nina is a trillith, or at least not who she appears to be, and at least attempt the Song. This worked well in my campaign since they didn't think to do it until the final banquet.

However, I, too, was confused because the specific technical ruling seems to contradict what the adventure assumes will occur when the Song is used. It only turns insubstantial creatures substantial. Since she is insubstantial when in SNAKE form, the Song will prevent her from changing. But that's just far less fun.

 

[Kaisoku]

Madness is a special case for Trilliths, being that she is pretending to be a gnome most of the time while being incorporeal (it's a unique ability to her, not all trilliths).

So, you are right. Singing the song of forms would make her spontaneously reveal her true form by using debris or other inanimate objects laying around (such as the tent or a tapestry, etc).

This would reveal her, and make her take real damage. In the text you quoted, it's taking place in a battlefield with a lot of powerful magic being flung around, and an explosion having just gone off.
Madness runs in fear because she does not control the situation and would likely not feel safe being corporeal in such a dangerous environment.
It'd be like someone pulling your pants down in the middle of recess... and revealing you are actually an eel and not a human.

At the time it's mentioned, it's most of the way through the adventure, and the King is fully in the grip of insanity and would likely trust any story his advisor tells him when she returns normal looking.

Plus, she's still a CR 11 encounter that could likely mop the floor with 7th level players. Even corporeal, she has a 20% miss chance. Plus, escape should be easy in the first meeting (Mislead spell, and between people running and screaming and 8 attacks all with confusion poison, she should easily escape the players).

She'd be pissed, and would likely come back and confuse/convince the higher ups that it was dreadful magic cast by those witches (the PCs) "that Gallo must have sent"... or "see how Seaquen will do anything to save themselves", blah, blah, etc, etc.

I don't see a reason to just skip over the rest of an awesome adventure that includes the player's first taste at mass combat in this campaign.

 

[Morrus]

This implies, strongly, that the Song of Forms is Nina's weakness (just as her stat block says "Vulnerable Song of Forms"), and that the song reveals her true form.

You could certainly infer that, I guess. That's certainly not the intention, though.

It only turns insubstantial creatures substantial.

Yes, that's all it does.

She's afraid of it and what it means (that her foes probably know what she is and that the game's probably up for her), but it doesn't hurt her in any way when in gnome form.

But you're free to handle it however works best for you, of course.

A DM who is struggling with this (and one who believes the whole adventure would be circumvented as happened in the OP's campaign) could easily add a line to the Book of Eight Lands description which prevents that from happening during a Council - it would have to be something which continued to allow her to keep the gnome shape, though, so it'd have to be quite specific. Perhaps magic by those not trusted by the Steppengard doesn't work or something, just for the duration of a Council.