WotC 4E D&D bloat (was Forked Thread: Pathfinder (PFRPG) bloat)

[tmatk]

That's a bit harsh. It's not that the MM 2 hydra replicates the MM 1 hydra except for fixing its hp and damage output when bloodied. There's plenty of other differences, both mechanical and flavour-wise, between the two.

....

FYI, Majora is probably referencing the MM2 podcast. The designers talked about the MM1 hydra being lame. They also said that they weren't going to fix it, and the good ones are in the MM2.

I'm obviously paraphrasing quite a bit. Give it a listen!

 

[ki11erDM]

Really?

Yes, really. I don’t think AP assumes you have PH2. I would say it assumes you have ether the PH1 or PH2, but it does not assume you have both. Just because they are not segmenting the market does not mean they are requiring you to have everything. Hell I bet you $50 that if they did segment the market and made a ‘Just bards, bards, bards!’ book people would be throwing a hissy fit about that hehe.

What you are saying boils down to this: AP2 will require you to own AP1, or MM3 will require you to have MM2, and that is just ludicrous.

But saying that I will agree with you a little bit… the MM2 does assume you have the MM1 and PH2 does assume/require you to have PH1… and I have a feeling DMG2 is going to require DMG1. But just because you can’t use 100% of a splat book does not mean you are required to own all previous material.

 

[malraux]

Yes, really. I don’t think AP assumes you have PH2. I would say it assumes you have ether the PH1 or PH2, but it does not assume you have both. Just because they are not segmenting the market does not mean they are requiring you to have everything. Hell I bet you $50 that if they did segment the market and made a ‘Just bards, bards, bards!’ book people would be throwing a hissy fit about that hehe.

What you are saying boils down to this: AP2 will require you to own AP1, or MM3 will require you to have MM2, and that is just ludicrous.

But saying that I will agree with you a little bit… the MM2 does assume you have the MM1 and PH2 does assume/require you to have PH1… and I have a feeling DMG2 is going to require DMG1. But just because you can’t use 100% of a splat book does not mean you are required to own all previous material.

No one is saying that you have to own every book just because it is "core". The point is that later books will potentially reference all earlier books. In the 3e generation, if a class was released somewhere beyond the phb, it would almost never see future spells added to it's spell list, feats that improved its specific abilities, or PrCs that required it. Now if you have a class in phb2, you can expect to see at least one * Power book expand your options. Similarly, future campaign settings will mention whatever oddball race you are playing and adventures will use material from wherever appropriate.

Core =/= you must buy. No one claims that it does.

 

[wayne62682]

In the 3e generation, if a class was released somewhere beyond the phb, it would almost never see future spells added to it's spell list, feats that improved its specific abilities, or PrCs that required it.

IMO this was one of the biggest problems with 3.5 and half the reason for broken combos; each book was designed in isolation with the assumption that the only books being used were the Core Three (PHB/DMG/MM) and itself.

4E's model might lead to more bloat but if you ask me that's a good thing. It means I won't get shafted because I pick a new class from a book.

 

[Cadfan]

What you are saying boils down to this: AP2 will require you to own AP1, or MM3 will require you to have MM2, and that is just ludicrous.

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that WotC books are, and will be, written under the assumption that you have all other WotC books.

That doesn't mean that I'm saying that every WotC book requires every other WotC book to be used.

For example, AP2 might very well have powers in it for both Fey Pact and Vestige Pact warlocks. I don't think WotC will even slightly shy away from doing that.

It just means that they freely reference material in other books when its appropriate to do so, unlikely early and mid 3e, when the only freely referenced "core" books. This doesn't mean that the books will be unusable, obviously you can use Arcane Power even if you don't own the Forgotten Realms Player's Handbook or don't have a DDI subscription. You just can't use one big chapter of it. It used to be that this worried WotC, and now it doesn't.

Which might bother me if it weren't for the compendium and the character builder, which give me universal access to crunch from every WotC book out there. This significantly strengthens their assumption that consumers will have access to other books if need be.

 

[trickybob]

I don't see 4th edition as particularly bloated because the game was designed around a continuing stream of supplements.

This is very funny. I think you'll find the game was designed to continually drain your bank account.

 

[trickybob]

4E's model might lead to more bloat but if you ask me that's a good thing. It means I won't get shafted because I pick a new class from a book.

That's because all the classes are the same...

Mod Edit: Ladies and gentlemen, let us not rise to the occasion as this thread has risen from the dead. Please don't engage the troll - he won't be responding for a while.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

:|

Really?

 

[fuzzlewump]

:|

Really?

Thread necromancers can be powerful edition war combatants; however, most of his attacks have the gaze keyword and can be avoided by averting eyes and generally pretending nothing happened.