WotC didn't necessarily save D&D

[GreyLord]

People say that WotC saved Dungeons and Dragons, that it would be gone if they hadn't swooped in and picked it up, but I don't think that's necessarily true.

I think they killed and Buried AD&D and the D&D system as it was known and replaced it with the D20/Pathfinder system that we now know.

Why do I say that?

AD&D probably would have gone out of print. It would no longer be printed if TSR had gone bankrupt. The same would apply to D&D of all editions, that's 1st (OD&D), 2nd (debatable, you could say Greyhawk...but most will agree it was more the B/X), 3rd (BECMI...and hence why the moniker...3e is actually sort of confusing...especially if you count prints as editions in which case BECMI was FAR more than 3rd edition, it was further along the line), and 2e AD&D.

Think about that. It would have gone out of print.

Is it in print today?

IF WotC hadn't made 3e I would wager AD&D WOULD be in print today. Why do I say that, because it was the biggest system of the time, and nostalgia does strange things to people. Books that have not seen print in ages are now being reprinted. I would wager the AD&D books would be picked up by a publisher, or would have been, in the past 5 years to be published.

Furthermore I'd say that it would be on the Kindle and Ebook format, and probably be available in hardcopy.

It's happening with all sorts of books that have not seen the light for decades, much less a few years.

It's not that hard to see it being picked up and published in both hardcopy print on demand and via the Kindle/ebook format, probably on sale for something like $20 USD.

However, it isn't being done today. Why not? Because WotC pulled the PDFs and refused to print a hardcopy.

Games that Hasbro owns are being reprinted out of nostalgia. Titan, Republic of Rome, and others that were more niche than AD&D are being reprinted by game companies. If those are reprinted, I'd be willing to be it a surefire count that someone would have wanted to reprint AD&D.

But they can't. The rights aren't released by WotC.

The creators of 3e ensured that no one could reprint AD&D under the moniker of D&D...but that OGL and D20 would be free reign. In many ways 3.X is now Pathfinder (in my opinion). Some would say OSRIC is AD&D...but is it really? Or is it more just a collection so that you can use the facade of AD&D for modules and adventures?

A reprint by one of the Print on Demand publishers would probably have much of the same art, tables, and wording of the originals (1e or 2e, which ever they went with) and be transferred onto the ebook format as well.

A reprint may have different wording, maybe more flavor text than the originals, but keep the rules closer.

But that didn't happen. AD&D is NOT in print, neither is any of the D&D's prior to 3.X and WotC releases in any form (though 3.5 is available via OGL/SRD and Pathfinder).

You could view that WotC basically not only killed AD&D, but then after 4e buried it as well.

Then again, financially, maybe this was for the best?

Most people weren't buying AD&D material or D&D material near the end of TSR, they were buying other RPG materials.

3e/D20 Fantasy, the system that they replaced D&D with got all those who had discarded AD&D and brought them back to the fold...enthusiastically in many cases. I'd say it was FAR more successful than any reprint of AD&D would have done.

I'd even go so far as to say 4e sold more than a reprint of AD&D would have.

An interest in retrogaming has come about in recent years, but I'm not so certain it's as strong as the internet makes it appear.

Financially, killing and burying the old system in order for a new system with the same trademark makes sense.

At the same time you have a bunch of people that still want the AD&D versions reprinted...

The best hope I think is the anniversary of AD&D.

So, do what do you think WotC did to D&D?

Don't flame each other over the editions of which is better or which is worse. This is more an analytical of what would have happened if WotC hadn't gotten AD&D, and how the situation would be different, better, or worse than it is now.

I personally think AD&D would be in print at this time if it weren't for WotC, in hardcopy. I think it would also be in ebook format (as that's what I see as driving a lot of this older book regeneration of prints in both ebook and hardcopy form).

I don't think it necessarily would do as well as 4e has done, and definately think for the time it was released that 3e sold a LOT more than a rewritten AD&D would have done.

That's my opinion.

PS: There are multiple choices allowed, so you CAN choose multiple options if you feel that more than one choice applies, but please explain it below just as if you choose other). Also consider that you can utilize that it was 4e that put the final nail in the coffin, also feel free to extrapolate and explain that in a post. Finally, remember, try to keep this as an analytical of what would have happened and logical follow on...do not flame each other over it.

 

[Crothian]

D&D is alive and doing well, even AD&D. I started playing in a campaign of it just Friday evening. It doesn't matter that the game is out of print somehow everyone still managed to get a hold of a book.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I think they saved it in terms of keeping its popularity alive. People like supported products and after TSR went bankrupt there was a lot less interest in AD&D 2e around here (that is where I live). In fact, a lot of people I knew switched to Hackmaster because the rumor was it was just a reboot of AD&D (never played it myself so I am not sure). When they announced 3E I was skeptical. I was a 2E guy. When 3E came out it felt enough like D&D to me(plus it brough back some of the cool 1E stuff like half orcs) that I made the switch in about a month.

Having said that, I recently ran a 2E Ravenloft campaign because the 3E version never quite felt the same to me. In play I realized, though 2E has some quirky mechanics (some of which are a lot less quirky when you realize what they are trying to achieve probability wise, etc) it works really well for the kind of Ravenloft campaign I like to run. I went ten years running 3E Ravenloft thinking it was me or my group. But after running it with the 2E system I realize it was something about the d20 system that was causing the issue.

Don't get me wrong, I like d20. But I think like any system, the mechanics start to impact the flavor of the game.

 

[Ron]

In many ways I can understand your feelings. I think d20 is too complex and formed a barrier to attract new players, being thus a poor interaction of D&D. However, you should notice AD&D was a aging system much in need of a major revision. Perhaps WotC followed a direction different to the one you're looking for, but I am pretty sure they did what they thought to be the best to reenergize the market.

Regarding your scenario of AD&D after TSR wenting belly up, I think you are too optmistic. It would take a few years to sell all the IPs and D&D would loose much of the steam being in hyatus. Also, it would be advisable to the new owners to release a new edition to reenergize the market and they still could go in a direction you might not have enjoyed.

 

[billd91]

I'm going to assume that some company needed to save D&D from years of TSR bankruptcy litigation in order for us to really have the discussion of AD&D being in print at all in 2011. Without that event, I'm not sure any other discussion has a point. I suppose that legal issues could have been resolved and the D&D trademarks and other IP auctioned off sometime in the years after a theoretical TSR collapse, but even so, I think the following analysis could still hold.

The decision to not reprint or even allow PDF sales of older edition materials may be idiosyncratic to WotC and the release of 4e - but they also might not be. Any company that obtained D&D from the death of TSR, either through absorption as in WotC's case or after assets have been sold off via bankruptcy and dissolution, would probably have come out with a new, updated edition. Once that's been done, any company could have made the decision not to compete with its own outdated IP by withholding previous versions of the game from the market. I don't see that mindset as being unique to WotC under its current leadership.

I don't see reprinting AD&D in physical form as being very likely under any circumstances. Maybe we'd see some retrospective CD/DVD collections like the ones put out by Far Future Enterprises that collect Classic Traveller and MegaTraveller. That's about as far as I'd expect to see under even the most friendly circumstances... circumstances that we weren't that far from under WotC at various points before the 4e launch.

 

[Aurumvorax]

Wizards provided the single greatest boon to keeping D&D alive: the Open Game License. All the old editions are still in print, they're just called OSRIC, Labyrinth Lord, Swords & Wizardry, et al. I find it disheartening that AD&D to you is in the name, not the spirit of the game. The rules are transferable: the art and license is superfluous.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

You seem to be unaware of OSRIC or that 3E made it possible. AD&D lives and now, legally, is safe to keep around forever.

 

[GreyLord]

You seem to be unaware of OSRIC or that 3E made it possible. AD&D lives and now, legally, is safe to keep around forever.

I'm aware of OSRIC. Actually from what I understand OSRIC wasn't made off the OGL or SRD, it was made with the idea that a company could have copyright to the writing, it couldn't copyright rules.

That has yet to be tested in court to it's fullest, I doubt it will be with the current ownership.

Don't know about later on down the line if things change hands.

 

[cyderak]

I'm sure if WOTC would'nt have taken over TSR that D&D 2nd edition would be alive and well........on various PDF RPG websites from 3rd party publishers.

TSR didn't have the nice existance we all thought they did. There were other litigations in the works besides just the bankruptcy.

I personally am glad 2nd edition went the way of the dinosaur. But not because I didn't have fun playing it.

I've been playing D&D for about 17 years and the best game sessions I had were with 2nd edition.

But thats because of the guys who played.

It was also the only game system we had at the time.

Because of that fact we thought it was great!!!

But after getting used to 3rd edition there was no question in our minds that 3rd was the best.

Thac0 was a pain in my butt and I don't miss it in the least.

And now that we have PATHFINDER in our group, we think its what 4th edition D&D should have been.

 

[S'mon]

I'm aware of OSRIC. Actually from what I understand OSRIC wasn't made off the OGL or SRD, it was made with the idea that a company could have copyright to the writing, it couldn't copyright rules.

That has yet to be tested in court to it's fullest, I doubt it will be with the current ownership.

Don't know about later on down the line if things change hands.

It was made off the OGL & SRD. Game rules per se are specifically excluded from copyright, but AD&D is much more than just the rules.