D&D 5E WOTC Possibly Removing "Druids" for Religious/Cultural Sensitivity Reasons

[doctorbadwolf]

I have; and while I myself don't care much, there's certainly those as do.

Sure, but they're rare IME, and just aren't ever going to make any negative impact in a company's bottom line.

I don't want to get rid of the Druid name because of any Pagan connections, I want to get rid of it to cut the class loose from the single culture it's tied to now.

It really isn't tied to the celts in dnd, though. It's a nature priest guy that turns into animals. The Voice of Nature. They don't even care about magic trees or mistletoe or have any association with Bards or like any of the things folks associate with celtic druids.

Though it would have the same tied-to-one-culture problem as does Druid, one could use the name Skald for the Bard class. Bard, though, is certainly more generic, and thus probably better even if blander.

Skald and Scop and Fili are great types of Bards, but the archetype is the Bard. I don't need it to be an Irish or Welsh or Norse Bard, i just want it to stop being a crappy offshoot rogue with spells, and be something like a Bard.

The storyteller and lorekeeper isn't an archetype that 5e currently really does, and it's a powerful archetype that merits more than a background or one subclass in the class whose whole identity should be defined by it. Also, classes with a strong thematic need for jack of all trades type stuff are stopped from having it because it's "the bard's thing". The Ranger is literally supposed to be a versatile survivor, and would be a much better candidate for getting half-proficiency in untrained skills. Warlock is a magical weirdo criminal whose power is ill-gotten, and is thus a much better candidate for Magical Secrets. Hell, every arcane full caster is a better candidate for that one.

Even the 3e Bard, maligned by optimizers as it is, was better thematically.

Songs/performances, mastery of lore, ability to curse and bless, ability to insult someone so hard they give up and go into exile, ability to find and if necessary create vulnerabilities in enemies, basic ability to fight, build from there. Give it skyrim shouts, I don't care past the above, just don't focus it hard on spells, don't thematically nerf it's support to single target dice, don't try to lean into dumb memes that should be the other side of the broody sad boi rogue coin instead anyway.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Cool, so spell out the answers to the situations I outlined above.

When a player wants to sell their soul, what's the range of stuff they can get for it? What are the consequences for selling their soul? How do they summon the devil? Do they get X more years of life before being dragged bodily to Hell or do they get to walk around indefinitely without a soul?

"Why have orcs suddenly started attacking outlying villages?"

These are narrative questions (as opposed to "does my attack hit?" which is a mechanical question). Only the DM can decide the answer to narrative questions.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I hope this example to enough soft to explain how the speculative fiction can used as a propaganda weapon to create a new black legend against a rival superpower. Lets imagine in the next years Russian and Chinese webcomics being published in internet in English languange. And then we could see a lot of pejorative tropes against the fictional version of Northamerica and the British empire. Then all the cities of the "Confederation" are like clones of Detroit, a true cyberpunk Distopy, and when we talk about about the "Avalonian empire" the image is not better. A true distopy where Charle Dicken's tales are Walt Disney cartoon next to this, and where the queen Victory-Elisabeth, the high-priestess of the Regalist Church, really is a worshipper of a Lovecraftian deity, and the Avalonian noble houses are also cultists, even with human sacrifices, and drinking blood of tortured children to keep younger.

Seems pretty tame and absolutely not on the list of stuff I worry about Russians doing. People from UK and USA could easily create similar fiction of their own counties, as it seems to be just satire about the less lovely aspects of their nations.

In any case, you seem to be very worried about how the western former colonial powers who still benefit from the exploitation they did are depicted. Calling such negative depictions as "black legends" and implying it is slanderous propaganda comparable to racism is pretty damn
inconsiderate.

 

[Staffan]

Or a cyberpunk manhua (Chinese comic) where all the cities of USA are showed as copies of Detroit.

That is a ridiculous scenario. Everyone knows that all cities of USA are copies of Vancouver.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

queen Victory-Elisabeth, the high-priestess of the Regalist Church, really is a worshipper of a Lovecraftian deity

Neil Gaiman already wrote that book.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

Even if you have a completely clear conscience, you will have to face the consequences of your actions, and this in the business world can mean a boycott campaign.

We can agree we need humildity and self-criticism to not become zealot monsters, but some times you have to stop toxic people who try manipulating you emotionally appealling the shame and guilty feeling. Some times you have to wonder when the criticism against somebody is a dirty trick by a rival to destroy the prestige of his enemy, or to avoid the lose of popularity when the rest notices the rival is more worthy of trusth and loyalty. I am not who needs the most a sermon about taking away from the dark side of the Force.

In the name of the good sense, can I ask you enough empathy to understand without prejudices the point of view by the rest of people?

It is not only once an offensive trope but the total abuse. In an episode of the action-live of "the last of us" a character was reading the Bible. It is no spoiler if I say then the audience could notice too easily that was going to be the bad guy.

Would you tolerate an adventure based in Emilio Salgari's novels "Captain Tempesta" and "the Lion of Damascus" where the crusaders are the good guys, and the Otomans the evil empire? Or the Emilio Salgari's saga of Sandokan, the tiger of Malasya, where the British empire was the antagonist. Or using as source of inspiration Luis de Eguilaz's chilvary historical novel "the sword of saint Fernando" set in the Spanish reconquest (one of the heroic characters is a former Muslim who converted into Christian faith).

Let's imagine a zombie-terminator character with the name Rafaela Herrera, who defeats complete hordes of mindless undeads with a great courage. Then a British complains because Rafaela Herrera is the name a historical character from Nicaragua who helped in the defense of fortress of Inmaculada Conception against the invader British forces in 1762. A very subtile insult against the Britishs. Couldn't you have realised?

* Al-Andalus was not the golden age of coexistence between the three religions. Jews and Christians lived as citizens of second category, like a medieval version of Southafrican apartheid. Don't you know about the razzias, the raids against the Christians, or the aceifas in al-Andalus? Can you guess how is to live as a native Christian in Egypt or Pakistan? Read Fides News Agency.

 

[Bedrockgames]

It's never going to be coherent because each culture comes with its own particular baggage. What might be acceptable in Spain may not be acceptable in the United States or Norway. Even among people who share a common language, Americans and our fine cousins in Great Britain, there is not a concensus over the acceptability of certain words. I have heard Australians and British people use a certain word that I was brought up never, ever to call someone, but to them its no big deal. If I go to great Britain and I hear people use that word, I'm just going to shrug my shoulders and get on with my life. If a British person is here, they should refrain from using it. When in Rome, right?

I think exporting taboos is generally not a great idea. The last thing people want is to find their expression limited by sensibilities from a place they have never been to and will never visit.

Another reason it's never going to be coherent is because our sensibilities aren't set in stone. Rather our sensibilities are in a constant state of flux as we negotiate with ourselves and with others as to what is acceptable. And we are not always going to agree on what is acceptable. Personally, I think all your ideas about taking people from the history of Britain and using them as fodder to create villains for an RPG are great. (And it's not beause I suscribe to the Mel Gibson theory of Brits in history.) There's plenty of fodder from the United States you can use. I like George Washington, but feel free to use him because he's got some problematic elements.

Authors are going to continue to use what we know of history, and maybe even current events, to influence our games. I like that people want to be considerate of the feelings of others. It's a positive step in the right direction. But the truth is you can't make everyone happy. And just because someone finds something offensive doesn't necessarily mean you should change anything. Give it a good look, sure, but sometimes part of negotiating those sensibilities means you don't agree to change.

Using historical figures in fiction, and in an RPG, is always dicey. I think they generally work best when authors have one firm foot in history but another in freeing the character from the constraints of history so they can become a fully realized character and not simply a figure dipped in amber. I would point to something like I, Claudius as a perfect example, but also to the work of Jin Yong. There should also be some amount of flexibility for genre. I have much different expectations when watching I, Claudius than I do of watching a bio-pic or Bill and Ted's Excellent adventure (or something like Black Adder).

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I, Claudius

I Claudius is not particularly authentic from a historical perspective. It's just massively entertaining.

 

[Blue Orange]

Seems pretty tame and absolutely not on the list of stuff I worry about Russians doing. People from UK and USA could easily create similar fiction of their own counties, as it seems to be just satire about the less lovely aspects of their nations.

In any case, you seem to be very worried about how the western former colonial powers who still benefit from the exploitation they did are depicted. Calling such negative depictions as "black legends" and implying it is slanderous propaganda comparable to racism is pretty damn
inconsiderate.

The 'black legend' (leyenda negra) is a specifically Spanish complaint about demonization by the Brits and Germans who got the printing press first, the point being the Brits did just as many awful things but cleaned up their own name in the process. (Germany's atrocities were a few hundred years in the future.) Of course, they were able to do that because they won that cultural war, o estuvieramos discutiendo en otra idioma. That said the Spanish still did quite a bit of nasty stuff in the Americas, as we all know.

BTW, there is in fact a whole genre of dystopian Russian sci-fi called liberpunk where Western liberal cultural values are oppressive. And the Chinese are already making movies like Wolf Warrior 2 where brave Chinese special-ops teams defend people trying to make pharmaceuticals in Africa from European mercenaries. Other cultures have noticed what a great propaganda machine Hollywood is, I assure you.

Heck, the popularity of anime is actually a nice bit of Japanese soft power. And while they're hesitant to offend a militarily superior nation with bases on their soil....remember how Godzilla first got started, back in 1954? Nuclear tests.


(The Gaiman story about Queen Victoria worshipping the Old Gods is A Study in Emerald, BTW.)

 

[Morrus]

Even if you have a completely clear conscience, you will have to face the consequences of your actions, and this in the business world can mean a boycott campaign.

We can agree we need humildity and self-criticism to not become zealot monsters, but some times you have to stop toxic people who try manipulating you emotionally appealling the shame and guilty feeling. Some times you have to wonder when the criticism against somebody is a dirty trick by a rival to destroy the prestige of his enemy, or to avoid the lose of popularity when the rest notices the rival is more worthy of trusth and loyalty. I am not who needs the most a sermon about taking away from the dark side of the Force.

In the name of the good sense, can I ask you enough empathy to understand without prejudices the point of view by the rest of people?

It is not only once an offensive trope but the total abuse. In an episode of the action-live of "the last of us" a character was reading the Bible. It is no spoiler if I say then the audience could notice too easily that was going to be the bad guy.

Would you tolerate an adventure based in Emilio Salgari's novels "Captain Tempesta" and "the Lion of Damascus" where the crusaders are the good guys, and the Otomans the evil empire? Or the Emilio Salgari's saga of Sandokan, the tiger of Malasya, where the British empire was the antagonist. Or using as source of inspiration Luis de Eguilaz's chilvary historical novel "the sword of saint Fernando" set in the Spanish reconquest (one of the heroic characters is a former Muslim who converted into Christian faith).

Let's imagine a zombie-terminator character with the name Rafaela Herrera, who defeats complete hordes of mindless undeads with a great courage. Then a British complains because Rafaela Herrera is the name a historical character from Nicaragua who helped in the defense of fortress of Inmaculada Conception against the invader British forces in 1762. A very subtile insult against the Britishs. Couldn't you have realised?

* Al-Andalus was not the golden age of coexistence between the three religions. Jews and Christians lived as citizens of second category, like a medieval version of Southafrican apartheid. Don't you know about the razzias, the raids against the Christians, or the aceifas in al-Andalus? Can you guess how is to live as a native Christian in Egypt or Pakistan? Read Fides News Agency.

When we specifically ask people to drop this line of conversation, we mean it.This is a thing which you have multiple warnings for over the years, so it is clearly a behaviour you intend to continue despite being asked not to. Please leave the thread.