WOTC, Scott, Where in the World is the GSL

[Glyfair]

Dont feed the speculation please. That is only one of 100 different possibilities and it casts things in a negative gloom and doom sky is falling kind of light. I just dont think that is fair to Scott and Linae and to Wizards.

I certainly didn't intend any gloom and doom. I don't see how suggesting that they overlooked something brought up in internet speculation is "doom and gloom", but I admit with a lot of the discussion that many will see it that way.

 

[Orcus]

I've got zero vested interest in the GSL, but for some reason I find this topic fascinating, so I thought I'd chime in again.

From what I've gathered from this thread and others dealing with this topic is that back when 3.0 was dawning and the OGL was being hammered out initially that a handshake agreement existed between WotC and several of the prominent 3rd party publishers that allowed them to begin working on material even before the OGL was finalized. Is this the case or am I mistaken?

If so, it seem there is no such "gentleman's agreement" this time around. I find this curious, especially since (at least on the surface), it seems the OGL was a great success, and from what I've read here on ENworld there doesn't seem to be any acrimony between WotC and Paizo, Necromancy, ect.

I was wondering if this is attributable to a change in the management philosophy at WotC, or perhaps it's it's due to the nature of the GSL? Another thought I had was that perhaps WotC still isn't sure what it wants to make "open" and what it wants to protect; and are erring on the side of caution till they get it hammered out.

Griff, you raise a great question.

Yes, back in the day at 3E launch there was a gentleperson's agreement. Please understand, we are lightyears ahead of that with 4E. In other words, in 3E, we didnt have an OGL and SRD formalized for over a YEAR after launch. We all worked off the books. Wizards, for 4E, is trying to have all this stuff done BEFORE launch. Of course, the amount of time before launch is rapidly shrinking.

I am very hopeful that if Scott and Co cant get the GSL/OGL hammered out soon, that we might go back to that kind of a situation. We alll worked just fine under the gentleperson's agreement and I think that would be a good idea for 4E.

And no, there is no acrimony with Wizards and Paizo and Necro, etc. We all work very well together and talk to each other and get along well.

They are simply going through the process to get this done. And it isnt like back in the day with Ryan Dancey. If you knew Ryan, you would understand. He is just a force of nature. He is a very forceful personality. Open Gaming was his baby and he just flat got it done. Times are different now, but go to Wizard's web site. Read the d20 page. Check out the open gaming FAQ. They--Wizards, the people there NOW--believe this stuff. Its on their site.

Clark

 

[Klaus]

Purely speculative guess:

Maybe WotC is waiting to have hard copies of the books ready for shipping to publishers that decide to go with the GSL?

 

[Orcus]

Purely speculative guess:

Maybe WotC is waiting to have hard copies of the books ready for shipping to publishers that decide to go with the GSL?

Nope. That isnt the problem. The plan was to get us press pdfs and to send updates if they make changes. So they werent waiting for hardback books.

Nice one though Claudio! (nice to see you by the way!).

 

[Lizard]

Griff, you raise a great question.

Yes, back in the day at 3E launch there was a gentleperson's agreement. Please understand, we are lightyears ahead of that with 4E. In other words, in 3E, we didnt have an OGL and SRD formalized for over a YEAR after launch. We all worked off the books. Wizards, for 4E, is trying to have all this stuff done BEFORE launch. Of course, the amount of time before launch is rapidly shrinking.

Uhm, I beg to differ. We didn't have an APPROVED SRD. We DID have OGL v 1.0, and we had an "unreleased" SRD which included things like beholders and mind flayers. The "Agreement" was that if WOTC changed the SRD before officially releasing it, developers would cease publication of material relying on the old SRD. The differences between the "unreleased" SRD and the final SRD were very minor -- the 'iconic creatures' and that's about it.

I did a lot of development under the GA, and I did it all from the 'unapproved' SRD, not from the PHB/DMG/MM.

 

[Orcus]

Uhm, I beg to differ. We didn't have an APPROVED SRD. We DID have OGL v 1.0, and we had an "unreleased" SRD which included things like beholders and mind flayers. The "Agreement" was that if WOTC changed the SRD before officially releasing it, developers would cease publication of material relying on the old SRD. The differences between the "unreleased" SRD and the final SRD were very minor -- the 'iconic creatures' and that's about it.

I did a lot of development under the GA, and I did it all from the 'unapproved' SRD, not from the PHB/DMG/MM.

I'm not trying to argue here, but since the gentleperson's agreement started as an email addressed to me from Ryan I think I have a pretty good grasp on how it started. At the very beginning, there was no SRD, there was a direction that you can use stuff from the books but just not XYZ. Then there was the informal SRD. Then the formal SRD. I agree the difference between the informal SRD and formal SRD were small. But the difference is the word "formal." Just like right now, we dont have any clue what will be in the GSL/OGL/new SRD/whatever. We did not have the OGL at first. We had a draft. In fact, we didnt have a full d20STL either but we did have the logo.

If you want proof of what we had and didnt have, just look at the designation from our Wizard's Amulet, which was available on the very first second that OGL stuff could be distributed.

All contents ©2000 Clark Peterson and Bill Webb, Necromancer Games. All rights reserved. ... Dungeons and Dragons® and Wizards of the Coast® are trademarks of Wizards of the Coast, and are used in accordance with the Open Game and d20
Licenses.

Links to the full text of both the Open Game and d20 licenses, when available, can be found on the Necromancer Games web site, and are hereby incorporated by this reference as if fully set forth herein. Future versions of this adventure will contain the entire text of those licenses, once finalized.

As you can see, we didnt have the final versions of the licenses. Frankly, this was a horrible way to do it but it was the best way I could think of at the time. My approach here led to significant discussion of whether or not you could refer to the license at another location (the answer was no, which I agree with). But all those rules were unsettled at the time. We were working with drafts and working from the books.

 

[Orcus]

As you can see, we didnt have the final versions of the licenses. Frankly, this was a horrible way to do it but it was the best way I could think of at the time. My approach here led to significant discussion of whether or not you could refer to the license at another location (the answer was no, which I agree with). But all those rules were unsettled at the time. We were working with drafts and working from the books.

I;ll check some of my early products to see when they started to actually include the OGL 1.0. At launch of 3E we did NOT have a final OGL. That was the whole reason for the gentleperson's agreement.

 

[Lizard]

I;ll check some of my early products to see when they started to actually include the OGL 1.0. At launch of 3E we did NOT have a final OGL. That was the whole reason for the gentleperson's agreement.

Oh, I know. We did have a pretty solid draft. Any maybe I came in late, but by around December or so, I am fairly sure I was working from an SRD draft, though not, as you note, the final.

Perhaps it is hazy memory or just the greater openness of the process, but I think at this point in 2000, we were a lot further along both in terms of knowledge of the game mechanics and of the licenses to be used, though neither were finished.

 

[Orcus]

Oh, I know. We did have a pretty solid draft. Any maybe I came in late, but by around December or so, I am fairly sure I was working from an SRD draft, though not, as you note, the final.

Perhaps it is hazy memory or just the greater openness of the process, but I think at this point in 2000, we were a lot further along both in terms of knowledge of the game mechanics and of the licenses to be used, though neither were finished.

I have to concede this: 3 months prior to the 3E launch, we at least had a draft of the Player's Handbook. I still have mine somewhere. Its a photocopy. I spiral-bound it. I wish I could remember exatly how long before launch we had that stuff. It had to be some time since several of us had products at launch. Things are getting hazy in the mists of time...

 

[Orcus]

I just pulled out our first print product, the Crucible of Freya. It was released sometime between September of 2000 and January of 2001 (I want to say November).

In the legal section for that module, it is clear that we had the final version of the OGL v1.0, but we were still using a draft of the d20 STL (draft version 0.4, which is reprinted in the module) and a draft of the SRD (version 0.0, with its "restricted terms").