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WotC Wants your Feedback On The Revised Ranger

I'm a big fan of the concave Rangers. When they're out in nature they can collect rainwater during a storm... they're great! *EDIT* Okaaaaaayyy... so the merging of the two threads pretty much made this joke superfluous. ;)

I'm a big fan of the concave Rangers. When they're out in nature they can collect rainwater during a storm... they're great!

*EDIT* Okaaaaaayyy... so the merging of the two threads pretty much made this joke superfluous. ;)
 

so is the new the eventual new ranger going to be an online supplement or going to be included in a new book?

There is supposed to be a "big mechanical expansion" in the future, probably a book. People around here are calling it the Big Book of Crunch. I suspect that is where you will see the new ranger officially, along with the mystic. No doubt there will be some new subclasses (I think there are 2 sorcerer, 2 fighter, and 1 warlock subclasses from the UA's that haven't been officially introduced) and spells. I think there is a lot of hope for new feats and Ebberon, Dark Sun, and Planescape specific stuff. At least at one point Mike Mearls implied that he thought artificers, alchemists, and shamans could be subclasses of one class (possibly by infusing items, potions, and spirits), but that was a long time ago.....
 

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Sacrosanct

Legend
But, the beast communication isn't necessarily at all about having animal friends. It's just a feature that makes you better at figuring out what's going on with animals, training or calming them, etc. It's a more flavorful bonus to Animal Handling. I literally can't imagine a Ranger concept that isn't Urban where that works against the concept. At worst, it will be mostly ignored. .

Why would you make a core class feature basically the same as an existing skill? Just make animal handling one of the skills rangers can choose from. The biggest inspiration for the ranger, Aragorn, didn't do anything that couldn't be done with an animal handling skill, to my recollection. "Training and calming them" is what animal handling is for, so I don't know why you'd need a class feature on top of that, that is mandatory for all rangers to have. If you have it as a choosable skill, then you can have what you want (all your rangers having it) without forcing it onto everyone else who wants a ranger that doesn't work with animals. How is that a bad thing?

Also, if you want "super animal handling", all rangers also have access to spells that allow you to do all that. So basically, every ranger does have access to all these options, so I don't see the need to have a mandatory class feature above and beyond for every other ranger that isn't specifically built to deal with animals (the beast master).
 
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Advantage is the same as +5 only we you you need a 10, and tapers off from the middle of the distribution for any other number. Advantage also gives you almost doubles the chance to crit, where static modifiers do nothing. So, actually they function quite differently.
Were not talking about attack rolls, so critical hits are irrelevant. 20 is just 1 higher than 19.
And there is no hard target number for initiative, just "not a bad roll". As you just want something around a 10 (or above a 5) equating to a +5 bonus applies. It's not exact, but close enough.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Why would you make a core class feature basically the same as an existing skill? Just make animal handling one of the skills rangers can choose from. The biggest inspiration for the ranger, Aragorn, didn't do anything that couldn't be done with an animal handling skill, to my recollection. "Training and calming them" is what animal handling is for, so I don't know why you'd need a class feature on top of that that is mandatory for all rangers to have. If you have it as a skill, then you can have what you want (all your rangers having it) without forcing it onto everyone else who wants a ranger that doesn't work with animals. How is that a bad thing?

So, do you not know what a thematically interesting bonus is, then?
Its a bonus. It isn't something animal handling normally does, its a thing Rangers can do that is in the same wheelhouse. Just like the benefits of natural explorer are bonuses in the same wheelhouse as nature and survival.
 

so is the new the eventual new ranger going to be an online supplement or going to be included in a new book?
As MechaTarrasque mentioned, Mearls said they were kicking around ideas for a "mechanical expansion".
What form it will take is unknown. We can probably expect it in stores in November 2017, as WotC seems to release a winter book around then. But we're judging things form a pattern of two years, so that could change dramatically next year.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
So, do you not know what a thematically interesting bonus is, then?
Its a bonus. It isn't something animal handling normally does, its a thing Rangers can do that is in the same wheelhouse. Just like the benefits of natural explorer are bonuses in the same wheelhouse as nature and survival.

Alright, first, you can drop the passive aggressiveness. Yes, I know what a thematically interesting bonus is. And guess what, you get that thematically interesting bonus if you choose to do so even if you don't play a beastmaster either through the animal handling skill or spells which every ranger has access to. What you're doing, is arguing that every ranger should be how you want it as the default. As is, you do have your choice to get what you want (aforementioned skills and spells), but it's not forced upon everyone else who doesn't feel the same as you by making it a hard coded class feature for every ranger. With the way the game is designed, for every core class feature you're adding, you are omitting something else (because the designers want to keep things fairly balanced). Not all rangers deal with animals on a level any more than what animal handling could do (like Aragorn as I mentioned). I think people who want a scout/explorer/hunter ranger that has nothing to do with that extra "thematically interesting bonus" should be able to do so and not have a wasted core class feature, but have another benefit that replaces it.
 

Were not talking about attack rolls, so critical hits are irrelevant. 20 is just 1 higher than 19.
And there is no hard target number for initiative, just "not a bad roll". As you just want something around a 10 (or above a 5) equating to a +5 bonus applies. It's not exact, but close enough.

Initiative is essentially an opposed roll. If you are fighting a critter that has a higher modifier than you then you will need to roll relatively high to win, and a "not bad" roll won't cut it (and vice-versa). For initiative, advantage is inferior to +5 unless the PC and monster have around the same modifier.
 

Mercule

Adventurer
Since I realized I made a wall-o-text:
tl;dr:
Combat roles exist and are worth acknowledging. The same is true of non-combat roles. While classes may lend themselves better to certain roles, the archetypes the classes fill are generally orthogonal to game roles. Confusing the two is a bad idea and detrimental to the game.

I get what you're saying, but IME, 4e is super clear, and even explicit IIRC, about party role having nothing to do with how you roleplay the character.
My problem with the 4E roles was that they were all combat roles and every class had to fill one. I object to the game being balanced primarily around combat. Yes, combat balance is an important element of the game and should be balanced, however, it's not the only thing. I've played a number of characters, over the years, that kinda sucked in combat -- including a pacifist built as a Ranger specifically to avoid any sort of soft Controller or Leader (in the 4E buff sense; he was definitely a leader) confusion and a 2E Transumuter using one of the Spells and Magic variants that made it hard to cast more than one spell in combat. Both characters were major factors in their games and often made the difference between success and failure (especially the transmuter), but almost never influence combat significantly.

The other objection I have is that, sometimes, a class fulfills more than one roll well. Fighters should be viable as both Defenders and Strikers -- they fight and run the whole gamut of the term. A war Cleric is both a Leader and Defender; heck, the right build might even throw in some Striking or Controlling. The Warlock in our group could make a case for being a viable Defender because she has about 20% more hit points than the Fighter.

None of that means that the combat roles don't exist and/or should not be acknowledged. I'd rather not see them called out as "Rangers are Martial Strikers". Rangers can fill the Striker role. A horde-focused Ranger build could potentially fill a light Controller role. There are enough people that see the Ranger as being hard to kill that I could easily envision a Survivor subclass that would turn it into a Defender. The elven Fighter in my group is more of a Striker, while the Life Cleric with the heavy armor master feat is a fabulous Defender. These characters have secondary roles, too: the Fighter can still Defend and the Cleric is the primary Leader but the House Jorasco Wizard actually does an admirable job of playing Leader, as well.

Certain classes tend towards certain roles, for sure. Trying to intentionally slot them, though, does a disservice. It leads to the grid view of "Martial Striker, check; Martial Leader, check; Martial Controller, hmm... time to write up a Razor Net Master class." Also, just because someone has a combat role doesn't mean they have to do it as well as someone else. The Ranger shouldn't be as good of a fighter (small 'f') as the Fighter. The Ranger has other toys and non-combat roles to fill.

A better way of handling it would be to be aware of both combat and non-combat roles. The combat roles generally need to be filled, but I've seen a ton of groups get by in every edition of D&D without a Leader/Cleric, for example. Maybe you even need three types of roles combat, social, exploration. I'm not sure what those would be, exactly, but it'd be interesting to nail down. The Face is the most obvious Social role, though the Observer (focus on Intuition) also makes sense. For exploration, the Infiltrator (get in and out of places), Watcher (diviners, scouts, and other info gathering), and Guardian (counter measures) all make sense, but those are train of thought and I won't defend them for more than example purposes.

You also have varying degrees of emphasis for each of the pillars -- let's say primary, secondary, and supporting. A Barbarian isn't as good of a Defender as a Paladin, but works in a pinch. Maybe you don't need a dedicated defender if your party is a Barbarian, Ranger, Light Cleric, and Dragon Blood Sorcerer. Each of those could be said to have Defense as a secondary or supporting role. Likewise, a Bard, Paladin, Ranger, and Favored Soul are going to be fine without a dedicated Leader.

The exploration/social roles should similarly be covered. My PCs excel at Infiltrator and Guardian roles, but are completely without any Watchers, so they don't know where to sneak into next and lay down some pretty indiscriminate wards every long rest, causing the game to really drag at times.

Just because a character doesn't have primary focus in one of the combat roles doesn't mean they lack compared to the other characters. My group is so heavy on Defense, Striking, and Leading/healing that they barely need Control. They'd benefit tremendously if their Evoker swapped out for Diviner -- or if either the Cleric or Evoker swapped around spell slots a bit. Even a purely exploration based character would get comparable spotlight and accolades to the combat champs.
 

The_Gneech

Explorer
My problem with the 4E roles was that they were all combat roles and every class had to fill one. I object to the game being balanced primarily around combat. Yes, combat balance is an important element of the game and should be balanced, however, it's not the only thing.

...

The other objection I have is that, sometimes, a class fulfills more than one roll well. Fighters should be viable as both Defenders and Strikers -- they fight and run the whole gamut of the term. A war Cleric is both a Leader and Defender; heck, the right build might even throw in some Striking or Controlling. The Warlock in our group could make a case for being a viable Defender because she has about 20% more hit points than the Fighter.

None of that means that the combat roles don't exist and/or should not be acknowledged. I'd rather not see them called out as "Rangers are Martial Strikers". Rangers can fill the Striker role. A horde-focused Ranger build could potentially fill a light Controller role. There are enough people that see the Ranger as being hard to kill that I could easily envision a Survivor subclass that would turn it into a Defender. The elven Fighter in my group is more of a Striker, while the Life Cleric with the heavy armor master feat is a fabulous Defender. These characters have secondary roles, too: the Fighter can still Defend and the Cleric is the primary Leader but the House Jorasco Wizard actually does an admirable job of playing Leader, as well.

Certain classes tend towards certain roles, for sure. Trying to intentionally slot them, though, does a disservice. It leads to the grid view of "Martial Striker, check; Martial Leader, check; Martial Controller, hmm... time to write up a Razor Net Master class."

This sums up my feelings on that subject beautifully. "Razor Net Master" hit the nail right on the head. :)

-The Gneech :cool:
 

Were not talking about attack rolls, so critical hits are irrelevant. 20 is just 1 higher than 19.
And there is no hard target number for initiative, just "not a bad roll". As you just want something around a 10 (or above a 5) equating to a +5 bonus applies. It's not exact, but close enough.

Not really. It is a lot closer to +4 considering good dexterity against average dexterity and it won't ever reach something thag can roughly aproximated by a +5 bonus.
The math is rather complex, but with anydice and a bit of statistics you can calculate which static bonus you beed to be ahead 50% of the time.
If your dex is bad you are closer to a +3 bonus.
 
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