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WotC_PeterS talks about his "aggresive playtest" (with Le Rouse, SKR, & Noonan)

Scott_Rouse said:
So I went to talk to R&D for answers but they had just finished their latest playtest:

<snip awesome picture>


I was told they were going to get barbecue for lunch (and the go to the comic book shop). I thought I could catch them in the parking lot.

I thought this was Andy Collins car but when I jumped inside it was full of Magic R&D.

<snip awesome picture>

So I went back to the building to look for the answers but I had trouble with the door.

<snip awesome picture>

Finally some one let me in the building and I headed to the second floor to see if someone in digital games might know the answer.

The place was empty.

<snip awesome picture>


I think they were off playing Rock Band or Guitar Hero or something.

<snip awesome picture>


I thought Events/Organized Play might know but they were at some team building off-site

<snip awesome picture>

So I headed to the fourth floor (home of Brand)

<snip awesome picture>

Legal was empty except for some guys caught downloading bootleg PDFs.

<snip awesome picture>

So I went to the executive offices:

<snip awesome picture>

But they were empty too (sort of)

Everyone in Brand was busy

<snip awesome picture>


So I just could not get an answers to your questions.

Seriously though more will be revealed soon.

Check out D&D Insider on Friday for some scoopy goodness

Happy Holidays :p
And happy holidays too you, Mr. Rock Rouse. :)
 

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Delta said:
Well, since you asked me, I have to say: Frankly, no.

The "core d20 system" mechanics to me always looked mathematically equivalent to 1E AD&D. Feats were new and I liked those. But 4E's totally-new races, classes, BABs and saves, alignment and planes, and complete demolition of the spell/magic system is unlike anything I've seen in D&D since its inception.

I'm not the target audience anymore, but on this point we'll be very much disagreeing.
New Races? That's done all the time - the FR books contained a few new Elf types, the Eberron books three new races (Shifter, Warforged, Changling).

Alignment and Planes are mostly fluff and don't really affect the balance of the game. (Usually, you balance alignment based abilities only against the alignments they affect, so they are not much different then abilities that are alignment-indifferent)

BAB and Saves is the first larger bit, because their goal was to create a different "curve" on advancement of these. But it's not like changing from THAC0 to BAB or from percentile to d20 + modifier vs DC.

Spells and Magic:
Stretching spell levels to ~30 levels isn't such a strong thing. Going from Vancian to per-encounter based spells is again a larger step - but it was already done in 3.5, with classes like the Warlock or the Binder, The Book of Nine Swords and in d20 with Starwars Saga edition - but it was more a "tack-on" and it changed the core assumptions of 3.5 enough to throw some people off - it worked against the common expectations.

D&D 4 is still a d20 system at its core. And that just can't be said for editions before 3rd. The core concept of the d20 system have been used for many games, and it is well tested and understood. D&D 3 didn't have this luxury - the d20 system was developed with it.
 

I'm hoping that a bit less playtesting is necessary on account of the much-touted new math. If it is, in fact, a system designed to work the same at all levels of play, then many issues resolved for level X should be resolved at all levels.
 

Wulfram

First Post
Eric Anondson said:
I know this is many hours old and a Moderator got frisky over the poster, but I something said just made me blink many times in confusion.

Can anyone tell me how responding constructively results in making a post funny where not being constructive then removes the humor potential? :confused:

Because without any constructive response, it can appear as nothing more than mockery of those asking the question, and thus more insulting than funny - particularly on the internet, where tone is hard to judge.

Such was clearly not the intent, but it didn't come across very well for me, initially

With a constructive reply as well, it is more clearly good natured, and thus funny.
 

evileeyore

Mrrrph
portermj said:
The sites I get from that link just have 3rd parties saying that someone from WOTC said they weren't working on 4E.
Even funnier is the first sites directly quotes EN World... the second is Kaytastrophe's**, the third is EN World...

rimshot.gif







** So that's where Lisa ended up. I need to frequent Kay's more often...
 
Last edited:



TerraDave

5ever, or until 2024
Its in another Enworld thread, but in case you missed it, David Noonan responded to this thread (got that?) on his blog:

Playtesting: Scott called me about this thread on ENWorld. Interesting stuff throughout. I can shed at least a little light on what’s going on with playtesting right now.


We’ve playtested a lot of different ways. When I plan a playtest wave, I think of it in terms of altitude—how far up the observer is when looking down at the game. High-altitude playtesting is an ongoing campaign, where you’ll see characters (and players, for that matter) evolve over time. You have mid-altitude playtesting, which might be a single adventure or an attenuated campaign. And you have low-altitude playtesting, which is a single encounter repeated ad nauseum, or a sequence of escalating/deescala ting variations (“let’s try it at 3rd level…now 4th…now 5th…”).


So altitude is one axis. You also have different things you’re looking for within that altitude band. You might want to see mechanical interactions—how the numbers are matching up (specifically or generally). You might care about speed of play—both in “game world time” and “real world time.” You might be seeing which adjudication of a situation works best at the table.


And you also test the away-from-table stuff such as character generation, encounter/adventure /campaign design, and the learning process (how long before someone groks opportunity attacks, for example).


No playtest technique can capture all of that. If you had to pick a single technique, you’d probably go with ongoing campaigns for playtesting purpose, because they have the salient advantage of most closely mimicking actual play. (In particular, one of the things that drives me crazy is that most people play more aggressively with pregenerated characters than with “their” characters. It’s totally understandable, but you sometimes get weird results that way.) But ongoing campaigns a) take a long time; and b) do a poor job of actually capturing small data points, because everyone’s focused on the overall game.


Scott mentioned the “Prison Break” playtests we did a wave or two ago. This was a simple 10-room dungeon with four versions: 2nd, 4th, 6th, and 8th level. You start at the back end of the dungeon and your goal is to see daylight again, basically. We provided the characters, and we provided the specific encounters. So we got to see exactly how dozens of tables would react to more-or-less the same circumstances. This turned out to be a pretty good low- to mid-altitude playtest.
Here’s what the player questionnaires looked like (the DMs got a different questionnaire). I’m going to [Blank out!] some stuff because it refers to specific mechanical elements that haven’t been revealed yet—and in one case, we’ve had a significant change in terminology:

=====
1) What's your character class and level?

2) How many XP did you earn in this session?

3, repeated) Repeat for each encounter: You’re going to give us a numeric summary of your “output.” Note what your damage output was per round. Just write down the number.
• If you missed, put down a "0."
• If you didn't attack, put down an "X."
• If you attack when it's not your turn (like an oppo attack), put the damage in parentheses, and put a zero in parentheses if you miss during an oppo or something like that.
• If you got KOed or killed, put down a "—."
• And if you attack multiple targets in the same round (with an area attack or by [Go Bears!], for example), use slashes to separate the output.
• If you used any [Van Halen Rules!] or [Hi Mom!], write that the end of the string.
Ask your DM for the room number. Use commas to separate the rounds. At the end of the session, a 2nd-level wizard might have a string for each encounter that looks something like:

Wizard 2 vs. Room 1: 14/7, 8, 0, 10, X, 6, 0. Used 1 [Hi Mom!].
Wizard 2 vs. Room 2: 9, 15, 11 (0), 0, 21. Used 2 [Hi Mom!]s and [Van Halen Rules!].

4) Did you notice any rules problems or unclear stuff while playing? What was it, and how did you resolve it at the table?

5) Did you discuss quitting for the day and resting? If so, how many at the table wanted to quit and how many wanted to continue? What did the group ultimately decide? (Repeat if the discussion happened more than once.)

6) Put yourself in the 3e mindset for a second. Did your experience feel like the D&D you're used to? Why or why not?

7) What other character at the table impressed you the most (race and class)? What did they do that was so cool?

8) Was there a PC that didn't seem to be pulling his/her weight? Keep in mind that this isn't a reflection on the player--just the character (race and class is sufficient). And what was the trouble?

9) What was the coolest monster you faced, and why? Oh, and the one you liked the least, whether for balance/flavor/tabl e play reasons--tell us about that one too.

10) Anything else the designers/developer s should know about?

======
That’s the questionnaire. I can tell you, it feels really good to paste all those output strings into a single spreadsheet, then start torturing them until the conclusions come out. One example: I’d always wondered how many rounds of in-combat downtime exist for a PC or a monster. In other words, how often does a PC simply double-move or get out a key and open a door, or something similar that’s useful but doesn’t directly, mechanically contribute to the outcome of the encounter. The “Prison Break” wave was big enough that I think we’ve got the answer—for the covered levels, at any rate.

But the qualitative stuff is just as important. The thoughtful answers we received to question #6 were particularly useful, as I recall.
 


Wulfram

First Post
Eric Anondson said:
I guess I totally disagree. To me being constructive is not at all a required ingredient for humor.

It doesn't need to be constructive. It needs to be good natured or deserved - otherwise it's just being a jerk.

In this case, accompanying it with something constructive would more clearly have signalled that there wasn't any intent to cause offence.

Oh, and since I haven't said it yet, thanks to The Rouse for the information.
 

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