D&D 5E WotC's Jeremy Crawford on D&D Races Going Forward

On Twitter, Jeremy Crawford discussed the treatment of orcs, Vistani, drow and others in D&D, and how WotC plans to treat the idea of 'race' in D&D going forward. In recent products (Eberron and Wildemount), the mandatory evil alignment was dropped from orcs, as was the Intelligence penalty.

@ThinkingDM Look at the treatment orcs received in Eberron and Exandria. Dropped the Intelligence debuff and the evil alignment, with a more acceptable narrative. It's a start, but there's a fair argument for gutting the entire race system.

The orcs of Eberron and Wildemount reflect where our hearts are and indicate where we’re heading.

@vorpaldicepress I hate to be "that guy", but what about Drow, Vistani, and the other troublesome races and cultures in Forgotten Realms (like the Gur, another Roma-inspired race)? Things don't change over night, but are these on the radar?

The drow, Vistani, and many other folk in the game are on our radar. The same spirit that motivated our portrayal of orcs in Eberron is animating our work on all these peoples.

@MileyMan1066 Good. These problems need to be addressed. The variant features UA could have a sequel that includes notes that could rectify some of the problems and help move 5e in a better direction.

Addressing these issues is vital to us. Eberron and Wildemount are the first of multiple books that will face these issues head on and will do so from multiple angles.

@mbriddell I'm happy to hear that you are taking a serious look at this. Do you feel that you can achieve this within the context of Forgotten Realms, given how establised that world's lore is, or would you need to establish a new setting to do this?

Thankfully, the core setting of D&D is the multiverse, with its multitude of worlds. We can tell so many different stories, with different perspectives, in each world. And when we return to a world like FR, stories can evolve. In short, even the older worlds can improve.

@SlyFlourish I could see gnolls being treated differently in other worlds, particularly when they’re a playable race. The idea that they’re spawned hyenas who fed on demon-touched rotten meat feels like they’re in a different class than drow, orcs, goblins and the like. Same with minotaurs.

Internally, we feel that the gnolls in the MM are mistyped. Given their story, they should be fiends, not humanoids. In contrast, the gnolls of Eberron are humanoids, a people with moral and cultural expansiveness.

@MikeyMan1066 I agree. Any creature with the Humanoid type should have the full capacity to be any alignmnet, i.e., they should have free will and souls. Gnolls... the way they are described, do not. Having them be minor demons would clear a lot of this up.

You just described our team's perspective exactly.

As a side-note, the term 'race' is starting to fall out of favor in tabletop RPGs (Pathfinder has "ancestry", and other games use terms like "heritage"); while he doesn't comment on that specifically, he doesn't use the word 'race' and instead refers to 'folks' and 'peoples'.

 

[Mercurius]

In the current climate "degrees" don't seem to exist anymore.

It is very worrisome and indicative of the current "culture wars." Both sides end up creating a spitting image caricature of the other side, which furthers the divide. I think we can do our part here by A) acknowledging and exploring nuances, that not all perspectives are on one side or the other, and B) trying to the underlying meanings of both sides (or different perspectives), while jettisoning the worst.

 

[Weiley31]

So, instead of having demonic-blood gnolls governed by their hyena blood attacking a caravan, you have free-willed gnolls attacking a caravan. Does this change how players react to the plundering gnolls in your group?

Depends on the conflict. If the Gnolls are just following their ways and people aren't understanding their view, it's complicated. If you have a group of Gnolls attacking and plundering, causing the loss of innocent lives despite actions being taken to avoid the conflict, then something would have to be done about it if the situation escalated.

And then it also depends if said Gnolls are having problems resisting their demon blooded nature.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Fair enough. I'm very leery about making any demographic--including "gamers of color"--into one monolithic group. When you say that "gamers of color have been telling WotC..." it says nothing about how many or what percentage. Numbers matter.

By way of an intentionally absurd hypothetical, if a group of Italians hit the streets with signs reading "Pizza is cultural appropriation! Stop making pizza unless you're Italian!" and the vast majority of Italians are like, "huh?" it doesn't seem to be a meaningful statement of protest.

EDIT: This does not mean that I think any changes aren't warranted, mind you. I just think that--as I've said in various ways throughout my participation in this thread--that any changes should not only take into account inclusivity, but also D&D heritage. There are ways to do this that preserve the essential lore of drow, that keep orcs as orcish, while also de-coupling them from blatant racial stereotyping (I won't comment on the Vistani because my knowledge of them is limited).

Again, do you think that wotc has made this decision lightly, or with little to no idea of how prevalent the point of view is?

More like is that they have been getting this feedback for years, in large amounts, from many corners, and have hired consultants and talked to people in the gaming community who are also part of marginalized groups, and come to the best decision they could figure out.

 

[Derren]

Again, do you think that wotc has made this decision lightly, or with little to no idea of how prevalent the point of view is?

More like is that they have been getting this feedback for years, in large amounts, from many corners, and have hired consultants and talked to people in the gaming community who are also part of marginalized groups, and come to the best decision they could figure out.

Thats one way to see it.
In my opinion they recognized a PR opportunity when it happened for a change planned anyway to make orcs more recognizable to WoW player.

 

[Mercurius]

Again, do you think that wotc has made this decision lightly, or with little to no idea of how prevalent the point of view is?

More like is that they have been getting this feedback for years, in large amounts, from many corners, and have hired consultants and talked to people in the gaming community who are also part of marginalized groups, and come to the best decision they could figure out.

I don't know how WotC has made their decision, but my "fair enough" was an acknowledgement to the idea that there were various factors involved, although clearly the current cultural zeitgeist has brought the issue to a boiling point.

But again, what does "gamers of color" mean? It is no different than saying "white gamers," who are ideologically diverse in their interpretive frameworks. Gamers as a group aren't monolithic, no matter what demographic we fit into.

 

[5atbu]

Surely the problem is the core assumption has been in D&D that most ethnic groups have been presented as monolithic and monocultural with little or no variation.
That is the problem.
If folks are presented as varied and various, with a mix of people, morals and qualities; even within a strong cultural tendency then it will make that essentially racist (prejudice based on ethnicity) RPG assumption challengeable in official offerings.
Then mix it up, develop other drow, orcish, hobgoblin cultures. Mix the ethnicities into these new cultures. Evidence that colour of skin or length of tusks are not the key factors that dictate culture.

There is a much lower need for new ethnicities that way, fewer manuals of stereotypes.

Not that all folk are like this, in a fantasy there are archetypes. Monsters or whole cultures that are Platonic ideals, the Modrons come to mind.

 

[GameOgre]

I thought the same way at first. I felt like someone was putting words into my mouth and making me feel like a racist which I found very disturbing. Then I actually did some research.

The guy who wrote the articles explaining in detail why depictions of orcs use racist stereotypes is asian.

So by claiming as you do that people who see a link are racist themselves you are saying that an asian man criticising the way white men write stories based on racist tropes is a racist?

...He’s a racist?

You do realize how stupid it sounds? I was ashamed I ever wrote it in the first place and now wholeheartedly redact that.

Nope, I'm fine with my statement.

Seems easy to understand to me. Let me see if I can help you.

I will now make up a race. Let's call them the Hogus. The Hogus are born from a curse like plague that turns every living creature it touches into Hogus. The Hogus are morally devoid of goodness and embrace chaos on a instinctual level. The Hogrus are immortal and do not procreate but instead infect anyone significantly covered in their blood with the curse plague and slowly turn into Hogus. They are born with pale skin but slowly darken to dark Red skin over a long period of time. Hogus instinctually work together at first but over time do manifiest higher and higher intelligence. It is rumored that their leaders are Crimson and even have powers of the mind.

There you go. Lets flush them out a bit and add far apart eyes and only slits where a nose used to be. Their eyes are large and round and they often have heavy bulk around their waist to the point of appearing obese.


So there you go. Total fictional story not based on any friggin thing at all.

Now your telling me if my some guy of pick your minority here status, comes along and says OMG this is so racist towards my race. Well then issue solved! it's 100% Racist cause well he isnt going to be racist towards himself!

Good grief.

edited for spelling

 

[Mercurius]

Surely the problem is the core assumption has been in D&D that most ethnic groups have been presented as monolithic and monocultural with little or no variation.
That is the problem.
If folks are presented as varied and various, with a mix of people, morals and qualities; even within a strong cultural tendency then it will make that essentially racist (prejudice based on ethnicity) RPG assumption challengeable in official offerings.
Then mix it up, develop other drow, orcish, hobgoblin cultures. Mix the ethnicities into these new cultures. Evidence that colour of skin or length of tusks are not the key factors that dictate culture.

There is a much lower need for new ethnicities that way, fewer manuals of stereotypes.

Not that all folk are like this, in a fantasy there are archetypes. Monsters or whole cultures that are Platonic ideals, the Modrons come to mind.

Very well said. I think this goes along with the intention of my post here.

 

[GameOgre]

Thats one way to see it.
In my opinion they recognized a PR opportunity when it happened for a change planned anyway to make orcs more recognizable to WoW player.

I think they rolled a Nat 1.

They are based in seattle not THAT far from a hotspot of social unrest where unknown people with guns and fire bombs (along with a bunch of people who are dressing as elves and wizards and smoking....Fun things )and pointed out(True or not) that their game is racist and they are sorry and want to change. Also they are a LOT of old white men.

The current situation is untenable and you have no idea what will happen tomorrow.

I just can see no reasonable benefit from doing so.

At the least it was foolish.

 

[TheSword]

Nope, I'm fine with my statement.

Seems easy to understand to me. Let me see if I can help you.

I will now make up a race. Let's call them the Hogus. The Hogus are born from a curse like plague that turns every living creature it touches into Hogus. The Hogus are morally devoid of goodness and embrace chaos on a instinctual level. The Hogrus are immortal and do not procreate but instead infect anyone significantly covered in their blood with the curse plague and slowly turn into Hogus. They are born with pale skin but slowly darken to dark Red skin over a long period of time. Hogus instinctually work together at first but over time do manifiest higher and higher intelligence. It is rumored that their leaders are Crimson and even have powers of the mind.

There you go. Lets flush them out a bit and add far apart eyes and only slits where a nose used to be. Their eyes are large and round and they often have heavy bulk around their waist to the point of appearing obese.


So there you go. Total fictional story not based on any friggin thing at all.

Now your telling me if my some guy of pick your minority here status, comes along and says OMG this is so racist towards my race. Well then issue solved! it's 100% Racist cause well he isnt going to be racist towards himself!

Good grief.

edited for spelling

I think you’re making a point, just not sure which one it is.

You’ve made up a creature that doesn’t reinforce racist stereotypes. Cool! That and the others that are also benign are also fine.

Now does that change the ones that are?