D&D 5E WotC's Jeremy Crawford on D&D Races Going Forward

On Twitter, Jeremy Crawford discussed the treatment of orcs, Vistani, drow and others in D&D, and how WotC plans to treat the idea of 'race' in D&D going forward. In recent products (Eberron and Wildemount), the mandatory evil alignment was dropped from orcs, as was the Intelligence penalty.

@ThinkingDM Look at the treatment orcs received in Eberron and Exandria. Dropped the Intelligence debuff and the evil alignment, with a more acceptable narrative. It's a start, but there's a fair argument for gutting the entire race system.

The orcs of Eberron and Wildemount reflect where our hearts are and indicate where we’re heading.

@vorpaldicepress I hate to be "that guy", but what about Drow, Vistani, and the other troublesome races and cultures in Forgotten Realms (like the Gur, another Roma-inspired race)? Things don't change over night, but are these on the radar?

The drow, Vistani, and many other folk in the game are on our radar. The same spirit that motivated our portrayal of orcs in Eberron is animating our work on all these peoples.

@MileyMan1066 Good. These problems need to be addressed. The variant features UA could have a sequel that includes notes that could rectify some of the problems and help move 5e in a better direction.

Addressing these issues is vital to us. Eberron and Wildemount are the first of multiple books that will face these issues head on and will do so from multiple angles.

@mbriddell I'm happy to hear that you are taking a serious look at this. Do you feel that you can achieve this within the context of Forgotten Realms, given how establised that world's lore is, or would you need to establish a new setting to do this?

Thankfully, the core setting of D&D is the multiverse, with its multitude of worlds. We can tell so many different stories, with different perspectives, in each world. And when we return to a world like FR, stories can evolve. In short, even the older worlds can improve.

@SlyFlourish I could see gnolls being treated differently in other worlds, particularly when they’re a playable race. The idea that they’re spawned hyenas who fed on demon-touched rotten meat feels like they’re in a different class than drow, orcs, goblins and the like. Same with minotaurs.

Internally, we feel that the gnolls in the MM are mistyped. Given their story, they should be fiends, not humanoids. In contrast, the gnolls of Eberron are humanoids, a people with moral and cultural expansiveness.

@MikeyMan1066 I agree. Any creature with the Humanoid type should have the full capacity to be any alignmnet, i.e., they should have free will and souls. Gnolls... the way they are described, do not. Having them be minor demons would clear a lot of this up.

You just described our team's perspective exactly.

As a side-note, the term 'race' is starting to fall out of favor in tabletop RPGs (Pathfinder has "ancestry", and other games use terms like "heritage"); while he doesn't comment on that specifically, he doesn't use the word 'race' and instead refers to 'folks' and 'peoples'.

 

[Xenonnonex]

It's because we are not racist. We don't see your point at all. Orcs are bad. Orcs are violent brutish psychotic monsters who are fun to kill and fun to be killed by.

Minorities are real life human beings that we are. They are the heroes playing the game. Our DM, our fellow players,ourselves.

We don't see the connection you insist is there. We don't see the (as you put it) so obvious racism because that sounds like us. It doesn't......at all.

Orcs are violent brutish psychotic monsters. If based on racist stereotypes goddamn is that a goddamn problem. Extremely so if these racist stereotypes are fun to kill. Lots of people have made this connection. And posted these examples.

 

[Xenonnonex]

In the spirit of good faith discussion, I'm going to assume that you're at least a tiny bit open to understanding why some view the matter differently, and offer an alternate perspective.

I cannot speak for anyone but myself, but I don't agree with the notion that because orcs have certain traits in common with racial stereotypes that orcs themselves are a racist idea, or are being treated in a racist manner. I cannot speak to every single depiction in the literally thousands of D&D books published over the last half century, but in terms of general treatment and more recent descriptions, all I see are traits in common with certain stereotypes, not traits in common with any particular ethnic group.

The problem is in this equation: orcs = racist stereotypes = ethnic group(s). If we acknowledge that the racist stereotypes are false depictions of the ethnic group(s) in question, the equation falls apart, or it requires us to link it back up; that is, it requires us to re-inforce the stereotype. By doing so, not only are we perpetuating said stereotypes, but we can apply the same process to nearly any depiction. Think of the traits of any number of monsters, races, or other D&D tropes, and see how they can be assigned to a variety of real world stereotypes. Meaning, if we see orcs as indicative of racism, then a lot of things in D&D are indicative of racism.

This is isn't scientific methodology, but an interpretive process. Meaning, person A sees racist connotations and person B doesn't, but because we're in the domain of interpretation, there's no way to find an objective truth because interpretation isn't in the domain of objective truth. As Christopher J Ferguson puts it, it is a Rorschach test: if you want to see racism in D&D's orcs you'll see racism; if you don't, you won't. He was specifically referring to Tolkien, but the same applies to D&D.

It isn't about right vs. wrong perception or interpretation, because interpretation isn't binary. Different interpretations lead to different results, and one interpretation magnifies a problem that can be addressed in other ways (as I have said, further differentiating fantasy orcs from real world ethnic groups). In other words, the view that "orcs = racism" actually perpetuates racism, because it strengthens the link between racial stereotypes with certain ethnic groups.

Take any specific trait, say "brutishness." Are any real world ethnic groups inherently brutish? Of course not. Individuals of probably every ethnic group can be brutish, and an ethnic group could theoretically be more brutish than another ethnic group because of historical or environmental factors, but it isn't inherent to the ethnicity itself (and there's none that I can think of that qualify). Does that mean that a fantasy race that is characterized as brutish equates with an ethnic group for whom the stereotype doesn't even apply? Of course not.

A further point that Ferguson mentions is that in D&D, "race" is used differently than in the real world. He uses the difference between Homo Sapiens and Neanderthals as a closer comparison, and given that there are no real Neanderthals left, the equation becomes even more faulty. Real world ethnic groups are not races in the sense of D&D races.

That said, obviously there is a problem that needs addressing, if only because some people are interpreting orcs in a particular way. But there are many paths to Rome. I, too, want D&D to be as inclusive as possible, but I think the notion of orcs = racism only perpetuates the problem that it seeks to solve. As I've said many times I think a better solution is clarifying that orcs have no relation to any real world ethnic group; if need be, stating it explicitly in the books. And of course, such a statement would need to be applied in a general way.

I think expanding the notion of what an orc is can also help, making it a playable race with a greater range of behavior, if only to add depth and range to them. I have done as much my own campaigns, with orcish sub-races that exhibit a variety of behavioral traits (including blue orcs who are focused on magic, green orcs who are druidic and nature-worshipping, grey orcs who are more traditional, although more CN than CE, and red (or blood) orcs who are focused on war and violence).

If even traits of racist stereotypes exist they should be worked on. Racism should be goddamn called out anywhere.

 

[GameOgre]

Orcs are violent brutish psychotic monsters. If based on racist stereotypes goddamn is that a goddamn problem. Extremely so if these racist stereotypes are fun to kill. Lots of people have made this connection. And posted these examples.

But there is no connection. None. But for just one moment let's pretend there is.

Lets say orcs are racist.

so then what?

We have to change them so they are not fun to be killed by? Fun to be kill?

What about Goblins? you sure that isn't racist as well? Gnolls? I mean come on..gnolls are just like Orcs! So Gnolls need to go away to or at least change so they are just people.

What about Giants? I mean for God's sake Giants are basically just tall people. We can't victimize tall people! No way! Giants need to be just people as well.

What about other aspects of the game that people could suddenly find morally objectionable? What about all the violence?

we need to do something to stop that. Are you teaching our youth to be more violent? let's change the level of violence as well.....what about magic? Some people are very upset that occultism is so strong in a game that children play.

What about the Gods? Some of these Gods sound a heck of a lot like real world religions! They must be purged!

It goes on and on. There is no end to this, We can't play D&D anymore.

You folks probably do have the best intentions in mind. You probably do think this will lead to be better game.

It wont. It leads to the end. To think they will stop recreating the game based on social justice ideology just isn't based on real life at all.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

Because, just like people, as in human people, you have good ones and bad ones. Nice and not nice. All different kinds of people. So, instead of those orcs being ok to kill because they happen to be orcs, they are instead judged based on what they do.
Look at it this way. You've probably seen all sorts of DM's who have their NPC's lose their mind if a dragonborn or an orc walks into town. "OH, those things should be killed on sight" and every NPC grabs the torches and pitchforks. Instead, now, you have orcs, and various other races, being treated as actual people, and not racist caricatures.

I have seen that, yes, not often but I've seen that. And I must say I was quite surprised by this take on the game. I am pretty sure a lot of campaigns are protraying a much less civilized world than I am usually playing. @TheSword stated earlier that his character had no remorse assaulting a bandit fort and killing all the human bandits. There is nothing wrong with that take, where PCs are "superheroic vigilantes", but I am much less comfortable with killing sentient beings, especially for no reason like in the example you give.

Given how tightly a very, VERY vocal subset of the fandom is about lore changes, completely rewriting orcs from the ground up would cause those folks to absolutely lose their minds. It's "You're ruining my game" all over again. WotC learned that lesson in 4e. You can't make radical changes like that because you'll get absolutely hammered by the fandom.

This is actually a very good point. I wasn't convinced by the people saying it's impossible to design monsters without taking inspiration from a real life group, I wasn't convinced that WOTC is unable to manage a complex change (though I agree it's a risk, since they claim in their announcement that they had been careful for 50 years to avoid bringing in the game stereotypes of real world groups, yet failed to notice the problem with Vistani...) but I am convinced by your argument regarding the fandom reaction. The path of least resistance would be @Doug McCrae option number 4, which is better than the current situation but not terribly satisfying either (just a statblock).

 

[Xenonnonex]

But there is no connection. None. But for just one moment let's pretend there is.

Lets say orcs are racist.

so then what?

We have to change them so they are not fun to be killed by? Fun to be kill?

What about Goblins? you sure that isn't racist as well? Gnolls? I mean come on..gnolls are just like Orcs! So Gnolls need to go away to or at least change so they are just people.

What about Giants? I mean for God's sake Giants are basically just tall people. We can't victimize tall people! No way! Giants need to be just people as well.

What about other aspects of the game that people could suddenly find morally objectionable? What about all the violence?

we need to do something to stop that. Are you teaching our youth to be more violent? let's change the level of violence as well.....what about magic? Some people are very upset that occultism is so strong in a game that children play.

What about the Gods? Some of these Gods sound a heck of a lot like real world religions! They must be purged!

It goes on and on. There is no end to this, We can't play D&D anymore.

You folks probably do have the best intentions in mind. You probably do think this will lead to be better game.

It wont. It leads to the end. To think they will stop recreating the game based on social justice ideology just isn't based on real life at all.

Make it so racist connotations are worked on. Research on these. Work with people. Work with other viewpoints. And ensure balance.
A hard step to take. A necessary one.
Do not goddamn dare defend racism.

 

[Derren]

Make it so racist connotations are worked on. Research on these. Work with people. Work with other viewpoints. And ensure balance.
A hard step to take. A necessary one.
Do not goddamn dare defend racism.

Those are buzzwords without meaning. Work with whom? Real life orcs? People from cultures orcs are stereotypes of even though we can't agree on who those people are (asians, africans, east europeans,...)?

 

[Xenonnonex]

Those are buzzwords without meaning. Work with whom? Real life orcs? People from cultures orcs are stereotypes of even though we can't agree on who those people are (asians, africans, east europeans,...)?

Creatively work it out. Good examples are in Eberron.
As in Vistani have cultural consultants. Is this goddamn so hard.

 

[GameOgre]

Make it so racist connotations are worked on. Research on these. Work with people. Work with other viewpoints. And ensure balance.
A hard step to take. A necessary one.
Do not goddamn dare defend racism.

Oh so now if someone doesn't agree with you. Doesn't see that Orcs=Black People. They are defending Racism?

Do you not see how messed up that is? This isn't happening in a vacuum. you can go on Youtube and watch a Black women who owns a store get beaten by four white men rioters screaming at her because they think she is racist.

Why WOTC thought right now was the best time to bring this stuff to the table...I just do not know.

I'm going to give the other side the best of intentions and think that it's just well meaning misguided folks.

 

[Xenonnonex]

Oh so now if someone doesn't agree with you. Doesn't see that Orcs=Black People. They are defending Racism?

Do you not see how messed up that is? This isn't happening in a vacuum. you can go on Youtube and watch a Black women who owns a store get beaten by four white men rioters screaming at her because they think she is racist.

Why WOTC thought right now was the best time to bring this stuff to the table...I just do not know.

I'm going to give the other side the best of intentions and think that it's just well meaning misguided folks.

I am saying work on racist connotations. Is that so goddamn hard.

You are revealing the type of person you are. Thank you for that.

 

[Hussar]

It's because we are not racist. We don't see your point at all. Orcs are bad. Orcs are violent brutish psychotic monsters who are fun to kill and fun to be killed by.

Minorities are real life human beings that we are. They are the heroes playing the game. Our DM, our fellow players,ourselves.

We don't see the connection you insist is there. We don't see the (as you put it) so obvious racism because that sounds like us. It doesn't......at all.

NO one is accusing you of being racist. That's on you.

What is being said, for the umpteenth time, is that orcs, as written, are based on a racist depiction of minorities. While the Tolkien issues are one thing, D&D orcs are pretty much word for word, (and if you don't believe me, there are examples of putting the D&D monster manual description of orcs beside various articles written not all that long ago where the two are virtually word for word) cribbed from racist descriptions of blacks.

Even if you don't see the connection, why are you insisting that no connection exists? Why is it not good enough for someone to tell you that THEY see the connection and that connection makes them uncomfortable? Why does it need to be "proven" to be true?

But there is no connection. None. But for just one moment let's pretend there is.

Lets say orcs are racist.

so then what?

We have to change them so they are not fun to be killed by? Fun to be kill?

What about Goblins? you sure that isn't racist as well? Gnolls? I mean come on..gnolls are just like Orcs! So Gnolls need to go away to or at least change so they are just people.

What about Giants? I mean for God's sake Giants are basically just tall people. We can't victimize tall people! No way! Giants need to be just people as well.

What about other aspects of the game that people could suddenly find morally objectionable? What about all the violence?

we need to do something to stop that. Are you teaching our youth to be more violent? let's change the level of violence as well.....what about magic? Some people are very upset that occultism is so strong in a game that children play.

What about the Gods? Some of these Gods sound a heck of a lot like real world religions! They must be purged!

It goes on and on. There is no end to this, We can't play D&D anymore.

You folks probably do have the best intentions in mind. You probably do think this will lead to be better game.

It wont. It leads to the end. To think they will stop recreating the game based on social justice ideology just isn't based on real life at all.

Ok, second verse, same as the first verse. Being cribbed from the real world or real world cultures isn't really a problem. Giants are among the most powerful beings in the game. They are a depiction of power, might, beauty, intelligence (at least some of the giants), magic, and wonder. They make flying castles. They have powerful magic. Some of them are practically godlike in intelligence. In what way is that a negative depiction? No one is taking offense.

See, @GameOgre, you are flat out wrong. And demonstrably wrong. Increasing inclusiveness has led (at least in part) to an EXPLOSION in the popularity of the game. By excising chainmail bikinis, being more inclusive, etc. we have seen our niche hobby go from the brink of being shelved to being larger than at any other point in history. D&D has never been this popular.

So, yes, it leads to a better game. Full stop. Making the game more inclusive isn't about "social justice ideology" (I'm not even sure what that is to be honest, and I'm betting dollars to donuts you don't either), it's about making the game accessable and acceptable to the broadest range possible and making the hobby grow for the first time in decades.