[WotC's recent insanity] I think I've Figured It Out

[Dausuul]

I'm not really seeing a point here other than:

"You use a codified system so you suck"

TaiChara didn't say anything of the kind.

Aren't you basically doing what you're accusing people of doing?

So you do in fact see the real point of the post, you're just dismissing it out of hand because... well... I don't know why.

 

[ShinHakkaider]

Hardly.

The OP tarred an entire group with a single brush. I'm telling the OP that the OP is wrong. If I didn't also play at a table, I would hardly be here on ENWorld, now would I?

Good try at putting words in my mouth, though. *tips hat, moves along*

There are quite a few people here at ENworld who arent playing in games at present and use this site to still maintain some semblance of a link to the table top community or otherwise complain about where tabletop RPG's are headed so you being here doesnt automatically make you a booster for tabletop RPG's.

Thanks for not being a snide jerk though. I appreciate it.

Have a nice day.

 

[ShinHakkaider]

So you do in fact see the real point of the post, you're just dismissing it out of hand because... well... I don't know why.

So his point was to be a hypocrite? I doubt if that was sole intention. Okay before I didnt care as much which is why I only dedicated three - four lines to a response. But now I'm honestly curious.

What was his point? Clean slate, here. Because what I read was a pretty snark filled response to "old timers" basically saying that the young 'uns dont need no stupid rules to role-play and that rules and rulebooks are archaic and unnecessary. Now he didnt come out and say this but it sounded like people like me and others on this boards are jerks for playing the way that we do. That is with codified rules. That didnt sit well with me at all. Hence my response.

If he wants to clarify on that I'd appreciate it.

 

[Mercurius]

But tarring everyone in a generation...

Sorry, but this is complete and utter BS. I did not "tar" anyone, especially the younger generation. Recognizing that there is a problem, that they are being influenced in (what I believe to be) a negative way is not tarring them, in the same sense that if I say that a person is psychologically scarred through being abused I am not tarring them.

I work with teenagers on a daily basis - I am a teacher and dorm counselor at a private day and boarding high school. I have great fondness for the young people I work and live with and believe that they have amazing capacities that older generations do not have. But I also believe that they are in grave danger of losing something so precious, so intrinsic to being human: the imagination. Specifically, self-generated imagination, the capacity to create/discover imagery from within. The kids I work with tend to be culturally privileged so haven't necessarily been plopped in front of the TV and/or computer from an early age, so they tend to be generally pretty healthy in this regard.

My view is that the cultural domain and exposure to virtual and information technologies experienced by children creates a kind of good news/bad news. The good news is that they are developing potentials that we don't have, a capacity to deal with complex amounts of information, for example. The bad news is that they are losing their ability to create from within, namely imagery, or at the very least this capacity is in danger of being lost or damaged or atrophied.

This is one of the reasons that I am teaching a class in World Building, to give students a chance to engage this creative imagination in a way that they otherwise probably wouldn't have. It is direct creative, imaginative experience and it amazes me what happens when you give young people tools and opportunity - what they are coming up with is simply astounding. To put it another way, I think they are hungry for this sort of activity because their imaginations aren't being stimulated; and the trick with "stimulating" the imagination is that it must happen from within, through its own activity. It is one thing seeing a cool movie or even reading an interesting book, but the experience of the imagination itself being inspired and active is another thing altogether. This inner activity is what I feel is in danger of being lost, or at least under-used and thus under-developed.

This is a much larger topic and one that my original post was meant only to allude to, not explore in depth. If you want to explore it in depth, I could get into that. But please don't assign a position to me that is simply not true. Again, I am not tarring anyone (OK, I am tarring WotC a bit, but at least without the feathering ).

 

[thunderspirit]

This was my arc, too. I basically came to D&D via console JRPGs. I first saw the terms HP and Level Up on a pixelated TV screen.

See, I went the opposite direction, from mythology and fantasy as a youth, straight to RPGs by age 12 and THEN to console gaming later on. I was certainly a part of the "heyday" of TSR in the 80s, though.

 

[Maggan]

But I also believe that they are in grave danger of losing something so precious, so intrinsic to being human: the imagination.

I think one of the reasons that you are getting a reaction about your statement is that "old" people have said the same thing about "young" people since the dawn of civilisation*.

At least that's my impression. I don't work with young people though, so I don't know if we have at long last reached that point in time where young people will lose their imagination completely.

Honestly, I doubt it.

Cheers!

/M


*Exaggerated for effect.

 

[Maggan]

What was his point? Clean slate, here. Because what I read was a pretty snark filled response to "old timers" basically saying that the young 'uns dont need no stupid rules to role-play and that rules and rulebooks are archaic and unnecessary.

What I got from the post was a spirited defense of the powers of imagination that is shown by young people of today, which occurs outside our stricter and more formal system.

Hence, when we say "kids today don't have any imagination" what we should be saying is "kids today don't display their imagination where I can see it."

At least that's how I read it, not as an attack on rules.

Cheers!

/M

 

[Raven Crowking]

Damn, maybe we should all just write our own Fantasy Heartbreakers

On it.

I know I'm sick of many of the fans.

On it.

"You must spread some Experience Points around before giving it to Crothian again."

On it.

I don't need WotC.

Agreed.

I think people talking about WoTC not wanting its old fans back are completely off base.

Agreed.


RC

 

[Argyle King]

"I want to build a keep."

"I want to start a guild."

"I want to create a new spell."

"I want to be a Baron."

"I want to be...." whatever your character wants, apart from a dude who kills monsters.

...and there are games out there which allow you to do that. D&D 4E can do it, but that not being a main focus of D&D is not a flaw. The game is -from my understanding- intended to highlight certain aspects of what some people might call dungeon fantasy* or some sort of heroic fantasy. It does this fairly well.

You can patch other systems on to it, or use GM fiat, or any number of other things. Those things will probably work, and work just fine for some people. Again, I will stress that it is possible to do these things. The question is not a matter of being able to do them; the question is if the manner in which they're handled is satisfactory when compared to what you want out of the experience.

It is my opinion that, if there are other kinds of stories you want to tell; if you want to give more focus on those other things, you're possibly better off trying something else than you are trying to work against the grain of a system. D&D isn't flawed in this regard any more than a buzzsaw might be considered flawed when trying to change a tire.


(*dungeon fantasy need not take place in a dungeon)

 

[pawsplay]

Hardly.

The OP tarred an entire group with a single brush. I'm telling the OP that the OP is wrong. If I didn't also play at a table, I would hardly be here on ENWorld, now would I?

Good try at putting words in my mouth, though. *tips hat, moves along*

Whether intentionally or not, you have probably signalled, within our subculture, that you are a "narrativist" or somesuch, and likely a fudger. The responses you get, FYI, may not be related to the message you were trying to send.