D&D 5E Would a repeat of the large errata from the previous edition put you off of Next?

Will large amounts of errata put you off the game?

  • Yes.

    Votes: 71 45.2%
  • No.

    Votes: 49 31.2%
  • I'm not bothered either way.

    Votes: 24 15.3%
  • I don't use errata.

    Votes: 13 8.3%

sunshadow21

Explorer
I think with 4e, the problem was several-fold. (1) they rushed the project completion for whatever internal reasons, releasing it probably 6 months to a year early, and (2) they were stuck in a half-state where they didn't pull all the triggers they should have and ended up hanging onto 3e-style holdovers (see: monster templates). And (3) they really didn't understand how their own game worked.

Most of the bugs and issues that slipped through were rather obvious, in hindsight. But it was what it was, and like I said, post-errata it ended up a damn good game.

Given a choice between "bugs" and "no bugs" I'd choose "no bugs" every time, though with any sufficiently complex system it's close to impossible. But if there's bugs and I'm given a choice between "errata" and "la la la no bugs here everything is fine!" I'll pick errata. The rule set itself should be functional and without huge & obvious exploits and errors; if it takes errata to get there, fine.

To a point, yes. What WotC does and what many MMOs today do that turns me off is that they do obvious rush jobs and expect to get away with it by using the "errata" excuse. A game system, especially one built from scratch, will never be perfect at launch; even Paizo, with the benefit of past development cycles, still had issues with PF. What it can do though, and what happened with PF, pretty much every D&D edition before 4E, and most game systems with any level of decent support is be able to be mostly playable without absolutely needing that errata immediately. With 4E, skill challenges were a joke, rituals were abyssmal, and none of the subsystems outside of combat meshed well with each other at all. It didn't require errata, it required what ended up being an entire rewrite (or two) of at least half of the core sections of the rules; that is unacceptable from a company like WotC and the leading brand name. Late 3.5 had the same issues with having to rewrite entire sections multiple times. Errata and changes should be for fine tuning, not getting core sections into a functional state after release so that the rest of the game can be played, and WotC is taking a page from the wrong playbook when they start copying how MMOs treat such concerns.
 

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Jaracove

First Post
Absolutely definitely it would put me off, no doubt. That amount of errata for such a big company is not acceptable.

I don't care too much with pdfs, because they get updated, but print editions, I'll definitely not be buying the 'first print' run
 

Quickleaf

Legend
It's not that the publication of errata is bad. On the contrary, it means the design team is paying attention to the fans and attempting to course correct.

The problem, for me at least, is when rules *need* to be errata'd. I don't expect perfection, but I do expect a highly functioning balanced game once playtesting and editing are finished.

The common slip ups seem to be with (a) high level play, and (b) supplementary released books. I would have liked to see, or hope to see in the future, rigorous testing of those two areas for 5e. Or at least some assurance that they would get as much testing/editing as the rest of the game.

One way to do this is having a core design reference doc that all designers go back to when working on new areas of the game. Something to the effect of "characters don't gain reliable flight until 6th or 7th level, and exceptions can only be adventure-based, not usable outside of the adventure at will." And rigorously sticking to that sort of thing.
 

Warskull

First Post
The goal of errata is to fix error and problems with the game. This is unequivocally good. Player A finds a loophole in the rules that makes him literally invincible. Once this loophole is known it has to be banned via houserule by the GMs or it becomes a huge problem. An errata fixes the problem by altering the rule and closing the loophole.

Errata are balance patches for tabletop RPGs. Starcraft is widely regarded as one of the best RTS games out there. It did not launch in its current state. There were number balance patches and a major expansion in an attempt to correct the balance. There were at least 5 major balance patches. Street Fighter 2 another celebrated competitive game had five versions before Super Turbo became the gold standard in competitive fighting games.

The problem with errata is that tabletop RPGs lack an effective way to deliver them. A video game just downloads a patch these days at no cost to the player. Everyone is automatically updated to the latest version when they go online. That doesn't work with tabletop RPGs because many players have physical copies of book.

I think the best solution might be to shift towards digital formats. Every book comes with a download code for a digital copy, similar to how iTunes and Amazon cards work. The gamer is then encouraged to register online and sign up for the digital marketplace.

The digital version of the book will be updated semi-regularly with errata. It will always be the up to date, perfect version. Then instead of trickling errata out, release them in clusters on set dates. That way they are well organize. The player can just print out the Q4 2014 errata sheet for their book.

The problem, for me at least, is when rules *need* to be errata'd. I don't expect perfection, but I do expect a highly functioning balanced game once playtesting and editing are finished.


With a highly complex game system, this is near impossible. Now, they should strive for balance and functional rules. If the game is grossly broken at release, that is unacceptable. However, even the best game designers in the world, designing competitive games don't get right the first time. When you have thousands of players beating on the game trying to break it, stuff gets revealed that a small team would have never thought about. Everyone's play level and understanding of the game improves over time.

There will always be a need to balance and mechanics errata. The question is does the RPG company ignore it and use DM fiat to fix the issues or do they update the rules as these issues are discovered.
 
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Jaracove

First Post
I think the best solution might be to shift towards digital formats. Every book comes with a download code for a digital copy, similar to how iTunes and Amazon cards work. The gamer is then encouraged to register online and sign up for the digital marketplace.

The digital version of the book will be updated semi-regularly with errata. It will always be the up to date, perfect version. Then instead of trickling errata out, release them in clusters on set dates. That way they are well organize. The player can just print out the Q4 2014 errata sheet for their book.
Unless I'm grossly mistaken, this is exactly what happens anyway. I buy a book from rpgnow.com, it gets updated and I simply download the latest version
 

Warskull

First Post
Unless I'm grossly mistaken, this is exactly what happens anyway. I buy a book from rpgnow.com, it gets updated and I simply download the latest version

The big change would be having an official digital store (like Paizo has their online store) and giving the hardcover players free access to the digital versions. That way everyone has access to a perfect version for free.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
I think comparing a tabletop role playing game to a video game is a horrible mistake that misses the point. It's not a video game. It's not always digitally delivered or used. Kids and adults will gather around a table, or a camp fire, or in a cabin, or a dorm room, or a basement, or a kitchen table, or the backyard, or wherever. And with just a few books and some dice and sheets of paper and pencils, will play the game together. Heck, about 1 in 5 people in the U.S. still have no regular access to broadband.

And while some will sometimes use it with a computer, sometimes they won't, and some others won't ever use it with a computer. The game must be able to cater to all those groups of people, because it's intended to function that way as a core concept of being a tabletop game and not a video game.

Just look at the sheer number of people who would be put off by the quantity of errata you guys are talking about, and you can plainly see how severely it damages the games marketability to constantly attempt to deliver streams of digital errata.

Some errata is fine - I think nobody objects to some amount of it. But a LOT of it, and you will turn off a material number of potential customers. And one way to measure what "a lot" is, is by looking at how big a package the errata will be when printed out for use by hand at the tabletop. If it's reasonably unwieldy for your average user that way, then you have too much errata.

To make sure you don't cross that line they have to start with the philosophy that constant small balance tweaks isn't desirable. Because that will go on forever - there is always another smaller tweak you could make to balance things ever so slightly better. That should not be the goal of a rationale errata approach to a table-top oriented game (though it might well be a good one for a video game). The goal is not to achieve 100% perfection with the rules - not when dwelling on that final 1% or 2% drives away 40%+ of your potential customers (while also consuming a small department of people to work on it to begin with - detecting, drafting, playtesting, and delivering that errata). A 98% perfect game is just fine for tabletop-gaming purposes.

Instead, it should be for gross errors, things which harm usability, and major balance issues. No "super fine tuning" is needed for errata.

I suspect they have learned this lesson, but we shall see.
 
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sunshadow21

Explorer
There is one big and crucial difference between a tabletop RPG and a video game: the DM. That one big difference not only makes trying to fix every single little detail redundant, it makes such micromanagement of the system impossible. Every DM is going to have their own twist and interpretation of the rules regardless of how much the publisher tries to fix the "official" version, so it still comes down to the DM, not the publisher, what the final game experience is going to be like. Therefore, what a tabletop RPG needs for functionality is not the same that a video game needs. A video game needs those constant little tweaks to a much greater extent because computers read every line of code literally. A tabletop RPG needs solid core functionality with the occasional errata to fix major problems and imbalances between older and newer material that were not able to be found and/or ironed out before release; the DM is going to have to iron out the little details and problems raised by each individual group anyway so trying to errata out every little problem that one person in one thousand isn't necessary, helpful, or a wise use of resources. There's a reason that Paizo is far closer to the market standard for errata than WotC; table top gamers want a largely functional game they can make tweaks to without being required to make huge and massive adjustments all of time. WotC ever since 3.5 has failed to provide that, constantly putting out untested and unbalanced new material and trying to fix problems after they cropped up rather than before release; Paizo, and most of the industry, tends to put out actual player material and/or completely new subsystems at a much slower rate that allows for better testing and integration into the overall system.

After initial release, Paizo put out several player option books at once, each with a different focus, most of which players generally agreed were pretty good books overall, and than switched to other material to cover for a while as those options were thoroughly played and tested by the players; some of the most obvious imbalances were fixed, but for the most part, they were already sufficiently balanced not to require massive errata. The core game is not something they have really messed with, and isn't something they have had to really mess with; the finer details are also sufficiently in line with each other that individual DMs can make tweaks without being required to overhaul major sections of the game. There are a few exceptions, to be certain, that require more effort to deal with, but they remain exceptions, not the general rule. Also, most of the adjustments seem have come from informal interpretations on the forums to specific issues, some of which prove to be important enough to justify official errata, but not all of it, rather than a small team of devs trying to isolate and fix the problems on their own.

WotC's approach during most of their ownership of the D&D brand, on the other hand, tends to try to emulate the video game model of release quickly and patch later, a method that just doesn't work all that well with tabletop RPGs. People either simply never pick up the system in the first place because the core systems themselves are a mess that take too long to get put into a functional state, or those that do tend to ignore the "official" corrections as they have already come up with their own. Worse, WotC does a poor job of checking newer products against anything but their core books, a major problem when their market strategy is a constant stream of new player option books, meaning that they, and their customers, have to do twice as much work after the release than they would have had to do if the major stuff had been more thoroughly worked out before release. I expect more errata from them than I do Paizo simply because of their tendency to recreate the game from scratch every new edition, but not nearly as much as they had for 4E; at some point, a new system has to stabilize, and 4E never did. Even Essentials, which was the largest stabilization of the system up to that point, introduced enough new factors to generate a fair bit of new instability and imbalance. What they had for 3.5 was already a borderline nuisance, and that was tolerated by many largely because of their investment in the system up to that point. Next needs to go no higher than that level or the amount of errata will once again be a major turnoff for a lot of people; anything like what 4E had will ensure minimal success at best. The tabletop RPG crowd will see it as too much of a video game, and the video game crowd will see it as not being enough like video games.
 

Yaarel

He Mage
The people at WotC rescued D&D from oblivion after TSR went bankrupt.

The people at WotC are doing what the can to make D&D relevant to new generations of players.

Times are changing faster and faster. But D&D achieved something special - it’s about knowing that you yourself can create new worlds. I hope D&D can help future generations imagine and build to make the world a better place.

It’s all good in my eyes.
 

prosfilaes

Adventurer
I don't want to see much errata, because it won't get integrated evenly. I'm not talking about "we really screwed up stuff", like tables getting misprinted, but more about continuing tweaks and twists--especially large ones. The best case is that it will show up in the online system, which I happen to be using, and then my character will suddenly change in some unexpected but noticeable way. The worst case is that I'm not using the online system, and suddenly it comes up in a rules argument and everyone checks and we realize the paper book says something different then the online version, and a bunch of things have changed that we either have to accept or reject.

In no 3.5 game I played in did we worry about polymorph errata. To the extent that the PHBII polymorph rules didn't work with the PHB stuff, it was broken for our purposes. It's entirely likely I won't notice any Pathfinder errata, that in fact erratted spells may flip back and forth depending on whether the online SRD, d20pfsrd or the physical book is more convenient for me to reference that day.

I don't want to see entire systems changed so I have to learn new rules for my character midgame and make sure I only check erratted copies. That's far more frustrating then it is useful to try and shut down munchkiny players.
 

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