Would D&D or RPGs have been invented without Gygax or Arneson?

[Numion]

In 1980 I was unaware of Gygax and Arneson yet me and my brother used to over-develop boardgames to a point not far from RPGs. I'm not special - my guess is that most of the people here have a similar story. Therefore I think RPGs still would have been invented but it might not have become so widespread without Gygax and Arneson.

Many inventions are developed concurrently by different groups, and it's sometimes chance that determines who gets the honors. EGG and Arnie probably succeeded where others didn't because they had a vision, and were intrested in developing the fledgling to complete product.

 

[Nightfall]

Would it have been invented? Probably. Would it have been as wide spread. Maybe. Maybe not. Would it be better if I had been a developer for the Scarred Lands? Hell yeah! But that's just my opinion.

 

[BiggusGeekus]

A neat thing to check is the Dragon Magazine CD-ROM. It has issues #1-#250, but more importantly has the seven issues of Complete Stratagist (I may have gotten the name wrong). Those early issues are a really amazing insight to the start of RPGs.

as well as a couple of dubious articles on women and gaming, but try not to go there

 

[Ranes]

When I studied history in college I was taught to be cautious in asking 'what if...' questions, as it's not really history, but here goes...

Let's just suppose that Gygax and Arneson didn't exist. Would D&D or a related RPG have been created? Were RPGs an inevitable step in gaming evolution? Were there factors at the time (1970's) that made RPGs a natural step from wargaming?

Definitely. The three salient words are Game Designers' Workshop.

A very early issue of White Dwarf (we're talking late seventies/early eighties - and I'm referring to years, not issue numbers), contained an interview with Marc Miller, the designer of Traveller. In it, Miller says something to the effect that he and his friends and colleagues were taking their wargaming in the same direction as Gygax et al, prior to the release of D&D, except that they were introducing SF elements to their games, rather than fantasy, and they started so doing later than the Lake Geneva dudes.

I have no reason not to take Miller at his word. Even if you don't, I think as others have said, RPGs would have emerged anyway but differently.

 

[Ranes]

A neat thing to check is the Dragon Magazine CD-ROM. It has issues #1-#250, but more importantly has the seven issues of Complete Stratagist (I may have gotten the name wrong). Those early issues are a really amazing insight to the start of RPGs.

as well as a couple of dubious articles on women and gaming, but try not to go there

Yup, you're thinking of The Strategic Review. (Compleat Strategist (sic) was or still is a hobby store, one of the oldest. I don't have my Dragon CD-ROM installed but I wouldn't be surprised to see a CS advert in The Strategic Review.)

 

[deadboydex]

There's an article on The Forge, <a href="http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/20/"><i>A Hard Look at Dungeons & Dragons</i></a>, that addresses this subject (among others). Check it out.

 

[BiggusGeekus]

Yup, you're thinking of The Strateic Review. (Compleat Strategist (sic) was or still is a hobby store, one of the oldest. I don't have my Dragon CD-ROM installed but I wouldn't be surprised to see a CS advert in The Strategic Review.)

Yep! My bad!

I used to live "near" a Compleat Strategist out side of Phillidelphia when I was growing up (45 minutes away, but it was the closest RPG store I knew of). Doubtless that is the source of my confusion. Thanks for the correction!

(thinks back to fond happy memories of flipping through Teenagers from Outer Space in the back asile of the store)

 

[Jehosephat]

IMO, this is like asking is Joe Montana a better QB than Fran Tarkenton or Y.A. Tittle. There's just no good way to do it. Several people could have done it, but the important thing is that no one did. My understanding is that Ed Greenwood and M.A.R. Barker both had distinct and detailed fantasy worlds prior to their introduction to D&D. Yet they just had their worlds. Chainmail was similar to what many had been doing to different degrees (and in different settings), but what makes Chainmail so special was that it included sections on fantasy as well as man to man single combat. Many people have their idea of who the top designers in the industry are today, but I dare say that all or most of those people cut their teeth on D&D. The knowledge and experience that those people brought to the table was based on the existence of Dungeons & Dragons I can't imagine that what Gary and Dave was unique, it was very likely to be going on all across America (maybe even the world). However, they seemed to be the ones with the foresight to actually do something about it. Would there have ever been a modern detective story without Edgar Allen Poe? Probably. But you know what? I'm sure glad Edgar decided to give writing a go. I feel the same way about Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson.

 

[johnsemlak]

books on fantasy had existed for years. the Hobbit for example was written before WWII.

Alice in Wonderland, too.

flash forward a few more years...to the 60's.

if we look at the politics of the time....and the wars...particularly the Cold War...you will see there was much activity by strategy minded individuals. wargamers in particular.

"i want to be the soviets" "i want to be the US"

and who gets to drop the first nuke.

and then you have the 70's.


and then the 80's

from Joshua

Nice quote from Wargames. Great movie by the way.

I'm not sure that I buy the argument that Traveller would have caught on if there hand't been a D&D. I think time has proven that Fantasy is the best genre for an RPG and by far the most popular.

 

[Henry]

I'm not sure that I buy the argument that Traveller would have caught on if there hand't been a D&D. I think time has proven that Fantasy is the best genre for an RPG and by far the most popular.

Don't sell it short -- and don't forget the impact of Star Wars in 1977. As it was, Star Wars sort of wound up driving D&D, instead of Traveller (I remember some of our original crude attempts to put lightsabers in D&D back then). However, Traveller might well have been influenced to develop along a more loose fantasy line with the influence of Star Wars at the time. Maybe even two lines - a "traveller sci-fi" and a "traveller fantasy"?

In any event, there DEFINITELY would have been RPG's - but as I (hopefully) stated above, their influence would be impossible to gauge, and the remifications on the gamer culture unimaginable.