Would love some input on my Homebrew Pantheon.

[Kristivas]

Greetings!

I'm in the very early stages of a Homebrew campaign creation. I like to take the "Top-Down" approach, and I began with the Pantheon. I wanted to steer clear of "Good Gods vs. Evil Gods with Neutral Gods in the middle". Instead, I began drifting toward an "Control vs. Passion" or "Moderates vs. Extremes" type, with Evil, Good, and Neutral deities within the same Factions of what I call the Celestial Conflict.

Below are the factions, the powers within, and a very brief outline of how things work below. I admit, most of the names are Placeholder, though I intend to keep the ones that grow on me.

I used 4E alignments, though 4E isn't necessarily my favorite version.

What is my purpose for posting this? Feedback. I enjoy constructive criticism and friendly discussion and debate. In providing feedback, should you be interested, I have a few questions that, if answered, would help me the most.
1. Do I have too many factions?
2. Do I have too many deities?
3. Is there a better way, in your opinion, I could set this up?
4. When you looked at the info below, did anything specifically rub you the wrong way?
5. Did I get anything right? Compliments are always welcome as well! (I know "right" is subjective.)
6. If you were discarding things, what would you toss?
7. Likewise to #6, what would you keep?
8. Any suggestions or comments you just want to throw out there?

Please check the short blurbs at the end for a brief explanation on the factions.

Thanks for reading!

Name of Deity |gender| [Alignment] - (cleric domains they allow access to)

--------------------

The Six Spirits
Fire (Fire, Renewal)
Air (Air, Sky, Storms*)
Water (Water, Oceans, Storms*)
Earth (Earth, Cavern)
Nature (Animal, Plant, Fey)
Ancestor (Family, Community)

The Rule of Order
Kavon Solarborn, Lord of the Sun |m| [G] - (Sun, Healing, Purification, Light)
Shanir Valathoss, Lady of Deceit |f| [E] - (Knowledge (Secrets), Greed, Trickery, Charm)
Zyril Zanthaon the Tyrant |m| [E] - (Tyrant, Domination, Mysticism, Law)
Viasera Bloodmourn |f| - (War, Competition, Strategy, Strength)
Gultandon, Lord of Justice |m| - (Justice, Retribution, Inquisition, Truth)

The Unbound
The Aura of Joy |m/f| [G] - (Beauty, Passion, Love, Pleasure)
The Shade |m| [E] - (Illusion, Shadow, Transformation, Murder)
The Bloodletter |m| [CE] - (Chaos, Destruction, Hatred, Wrath)
The Steel Lady |f| [LG] - (Protection, Law, Courage, Glory)
The Wanderer |f| - (Celerity, Travel, Time, Dream)

The Balance
Kale Valathoss, Lord of Power |m| - (Magic, Mentalism, Force, Oracle)
Kora Valathoss, Lady of Trade |f| - (Creation, Trade, Commerce, Craft)
Vol, the Reaper |gn| - (Death, Destiny, Fate, Repose)
Cil'nimshaan Andryl, the Scholar |m| - (Knowledge, Mind, Meditation, Balance)

The Black Queen's Court
The Black Queen |f| [CE] - (Pestilence, Decay, Necromancy, Undeath, Darkness, Slime)
-Poma, Daughter of Suffering |f| [CE] - (Suffering) demigod
-Jorl, Son of Famine |m| [E] - (Hunger) demigod
-Grel, Son of Madness |m| - (Madness) demigod
-Siia, Daughter of Ice |f| [CE] - (Cold) demigod
-Muur, The Serpent |n/a| [E] - (Scalykind) demigod

The Pale WardenThe Pale Warden |m| [LG] - (Honor, Endurance, Liberation, Exorcism)
The Rule of Order and The Unbound have opposed each other since the beginning of time. Each deity imposes their prospective views through their own methods, but remains loyal to their factions despite opposing alignment views on Good and Evil.

Those of The Balance seek to maintain neutrality and ensure neither of the factions gain too much influence over the mortal plane. Oftentimes, members of The Balance will choose sides based on the best interest of maintaining equality between the deity-factions. They also strive to prevent all-out war between both the Gods and their followers.

The Six Spirits do not have a place in the Celestial Conflict, serving only to protect Connoleath. They do not vie for power in ways the other factions do, as they are not embodiments of traits (Justice, Wrath, Trade, etc) and emotions (Love, Competition, Hatred, etc) as the other gods tend to be, save for the Ancestral Spirits who aim to protect their descendants without interest in the Celestial Conflict.

The Black Queen and her Demigod children seek to conquer and destroy all other factions of deities, as well as on the Mortal Plane. All of the other Factions are her enemy, including that of the Six Spirits, as she covets all power for her own. Once a part of The Unbound, she murdered her counterpart in The Rule of Law, taking much of his power for herself while using the remainder to empower her most loyal, most powerful followers. This resulted in the creation of the High Necrolords, who conquered and ruled massive city-states in Connoleath for over a thousand years. During this time, many mortals were forcibly converted into her service, giving her enough power to hold off the attacks of the other deities. Her demigod children are the result of many unholy trysts with her Necrolords servants.

The Pale Warden was a Human Paladin once granted Divinity upon acquiring an artifact known as the Scales of Fate. The Scales brought the Warden into play, seemingly for the sole purpose of opposing The Black Queen. Since his ascension a mere five hundred years prior, The Black Queen's hold on Connoleath had been broken with the destruction of most of her High Necrolords. He stands uninterested in the Celestial Conflict, with only a single-minded goal of ridding Connoleath of his most hated foe and all of her followers.

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=34179]Kristivas[/MENTION] You might want to change the font color because in Legacy viewing mode I cannot read dark grey on black text.

I like it a lot actually. Is Connoleath the name of your homebrew world?

 

[Kristivas]

Yeah, that's the name.

Apologies for that. I've been away for quite some time, and was unsure what Legacy viewing mode was. Switched to it to see for myself. Hope that fixes it. Thanks for the compliment.

(edit: also seemed to have forgotten to save my edits properly ha.)

 

[steeldragons]

Greetings Kristivas!

I LOVE working on pantheons and world-religions, mythologies and general campaign setting stuff. So this is all right up my alley. I hope what i have to offer might be helpful or, at least, give you some things to think about.

There's a lot of good stuff here. There's a few things I have questions on.

My biggest, before anything else is this...if this is YOUR campaign world, YOUR homebrew, YOUR creation...then why OH WHY would you want to be basing the entire pantheon's alignment system around the one that is NOT your favorite?!

That utterly baffles me. This is YOURS, man! Make it EXACTLY what you want. If the 4e alignment breakdown is not that for you, then why are you using it?!

Ok. That out of the way, let's start with the stuff you, specifically asked about...

1. Do I have too many factions?

"Too many"?...well, I guess not. You basically have set up, though without the "lines" drawn along alignment, only 3. You have the "Orderly" faction, the "Neutral/Balance" faction and the "Anything Goes/[I'll dare to characterize as the] Chaos" faction. Your "6 spirits" aren't involved, the "Black Queen" and "Pale Warden" seem to kinda be in their own little dance..so your really only have 3 "factions" so I guess that's not too many.

2. Do I have too many deities?

I don't know that there's such a thing. lol. I mean what are Forgotten Realms or Greywhawk up to these days? My own campaign world of Orea rounds out at, I think, about 25...only about half of whom are "greater powers/major deities" with the rest as lesser gods of areas of less importance or more specific interest, and a smattering of demi-gods. So your spread looks just about right to me.

However, why are the Six Spirits necessarily separate from the Rulers or the Unbound? Do/could/should they not be put in one or the other? Is there some mythological reason/significance that hasn't been presented for this separation?

The Black Queen seems to exist in something of a quandry of contrariness. Is she necessary as an "outside [of the factions]" figure?

Why would she NOT be considered, were one to look at her portfolio I'd assume "Unbound"?...But then, by the description of wanting to gain all powers as her own (which has NOTHING to do and indeed seems contradictory with her portfolio), when you have "Tyranny and Domination" thrown in with the "Rule of Order"...should she, then, not be under the Rule of Order?

Or (as she appears so obviously to my eyes) is she SUPPOSED to be the [traditional/pre-D&D/mythologoical] Tiamat figure of the raging/roiling monster-dragon (right down to the traditional 5-headsed imagery a.k.a. her 5 demi-god children...each of whom, I'd assume to be assigned one of evil/chromatic dragonkind) who exists prior to, in spite of, and for the ultimate undoing of the "organized/usable/safe for mortal creatures" universe?

Does she predate the Rulers and Unbound? The Spirits? Since it has been explicitly stated that the Pale Warden is a mortal-made-divine hero figure, it would seem he comes last/later to thwart the Black Queen...so where does she fall in the birth of the cosmos and/or the other gods? Her spheres of influence would suggest she did not/could not exist before the world was made and ultimately corrupted at some point of its creation (at which point things like decay and pestilence can come into existence and all the rest of her protfolio follows from there).

I would say, if you wanted to lessen your number of deities, you could always disperse the spirit things, "air, earth, fire, water, nature and ancestors" among other existing deities.

3. Is there a better way, in your opinion, I could set this up?

That's kinda what I'm asking/bringing up...is there? Are the factions, as they exist now, necessary? Is it necessary or to the betterment of your world that a cleric of one of the Six Spirits will NOT be involved in or concerned with the actions of the clerics of gods who are in the "Celestial Conflict"? Are "Nature" and "Ancestors" such integral parts of reality...as "elemental" (as it were) to creation, as Air, Water, Fire and Earth, to warrant their own Spirits?

A "better way" in my opinion. hmmm...well, off the top of my head and what I've said thus far...

1. Place the Six Spirits (are they getting names, btw? and if not, why not?) under the Balance.
2. I would swap Shanir Valathoss and, at first glance (my initial instinct), the Steel Lady. Maintaining 5 each for Order and Unbound, but the placement of these two, in particular, irks me.

So now your "teams" are 5 Rule of Order, 5 Unbound and 10 for Balance (making the maintenance of balance all that much more stable/easier on the acutal gods of balance because they have the support -however passive or active you want to portray it- of the 6 "spirits" under them.

3. The Black Queen has 5 demi-gods to throw at and confound to poor, valiant, against all odds, Pale Warden...does he need some subservient spirit creatures throw at them? (I mean, obviosuly, he has his court of ancient gold and silver dragons to help...I suppose that would work against demi-gods

4. When you looked at the info below, did anything specifically rub you t he wrong way?

Well, for one, take Shanir Valathoss out of Order and put her in Unbound..., "Deceit, Secrets, Greed, Trickery and Charm" there is nothing in that portfolio that is to the benefit or support of "Order"...unless you are thinking that one must have Order to twist and damage, so that things like Trickery, Secrets and Deceit can exist at all....but that's a bit stretchy for me.

Bottom line, that goddess' presence among the Order faction rubbed me wrong immediately.

And while I can see the Unbounded side of "Glory and Courage" when you add in "Law and Protection", that implies all kinds of structure that can only exist/further the Rule of Order...besides one of the other Order gods already has "Law" in their portfolio. The Steel Lady, to me obviously, belongs in the Order faction.

2) I don't see how/why the Black Queen and her portfolio of "pestilence, decay, necromancy, and undeath, darkness and slime" justifies her NOT being in the Unbound. That all sounds, instinctively, like stuff that does not wish to be or operate within bounds.

If it is strictly this idea that she wants all the power for herself, again, tyranny and domination are in the Rule of Order...and nothing about "pestilence,decay,necromancy, undeath, slime or darkness" says (again, to me) "GIMME power"...unless you could say pestilence seeks to "spread"...but decay, necromancy, undeath, darkness and even pestilence...all of these things say "I want to "TAKE AWAY [light/life/health/etc]" not "ACCUMUALTE MORE [power]." Everything over which she holds sway is about detracting and lessening...see where I'm hitting a symbollic speed bump?

Oh, and really not so much a "rubbing the wrong way" as a "tilt of the head with an expression of confusion"...how does "Tyrant, Domination and Law", in any conceivable way, include/incorporate "Mysticism"?

5. Did I get anything right? Compliments are always welcome as well! (I know "right" is subjective.)

What immediately rubbed me the RIGHT way was the nice handling/skewing/refluffing of Tiamat a.k.a. 5-head dragon a.k.a. the Black Queen with 5 demi-god children [each of them have a color of dragon associated with them?] and Bahamut a.k.a. Platinum Dragon a.k.a. Paladine a.k.a. "the Paladin" a.k.a. a "Pale" Warden.

Very nice. I enjoyed that.

I also very much like the idea of separate teams of deities that are NOT based on the "good/evil" acess but the "law/chaos" one instead (though I do urge you to use the alignment system that IS your favorite).

6. If you were discarding things, what would you toss?
7. Likewise to #6, what would you keep?

Dunno if I'd toss anything...I just think some more thought and detailed reasons [mythologically relevant to the world] are needed for who's where and why. Also, I submit that the Six Spirits, if they are indeed meant to be gods of these 6 "spiritual areas" i.e. the supreme embodiment of Air, Earth, Nature, etc..., then they should be named. Or at least given titles like "Steel Lady" or "Aura of Joy" but something beyond just "the Spirit of Air", "the Spirit of Nature"...if there is such a thing as THE "Spirit of Ancestors [like a guardian thereof, as opposed to all of the individual ancestral spirits] then it deserves a name.

8. Any suggestions or comments you just want to throw out there?

What/where/how and why the Black Queen and her children exist in addition to/outside of the other gods is still something I don't quite get. Where/how does she fit into the mythology?

The Pale Warden's story seems set from what you say below but where the Black Queen came from/fits in just isn't making sense for me.

Also, for that matter, how/where/why did all of the existing deities come from and how were they split into these factions? I note the deceit goddess has the same last name [see below] as two of the Balance deities. Are they siblings? Parents and child? Soemthing else?

I am not a huge fan of deities having or requiring surnames. If they have an epithet or title, that makes tons of sense. "Apollo Sunspeaker" or "Odin All-Father" for example. So if those last names translate as something specific to those deities in one of your world's languages, then bully. But if they're just some means of differeniating them from all the other deities named " Kale" in your campaign universe..."No, no! Not Kale Jones from down the street. I mean that lovely Kale Smith from Nextville."...then drop them.

Think that's all for now/first glance. But, again, some good stuff going on in here.
Look forward to hearing how things progress.
--Steel Dragons

 

[GMMichael]

1. Do I have too many factions?
2. Do I have too many deities?
3. Is there a better way, in your opinion, I could set this up?
4. When you looked at the info below, did anything specifically rub you the wrong way?
5. Did I get anything right? Compliments are always welcome as well! (I know "right" is subjective.)
6. If you were discarding things, what would you toss?
7. Likewise to #6, what would you keep?
8. Any suggestions or comments you just want to throw out there?

A lot of these questions fall into place by themselves if you take the man-made-god approach. If the primitive or civilized peoples of the world created the gods, who would the gods be?

Did the people start by making gods for each of the forces of nature they wanted to define?

Did they consolidate some gods into one god, and limit access to that god through a church, or a ruler?

Are there natural or man-made events that would be best described by interactions or histories between the gods?

Did some poets gain fame by telling stories about the gods?

You have too many gods for just one culture. But if there are several cultures worshiping these gods, then that make more sense. The list of gods looks good, but remember that gods are as interesting, or more, than real people. So each of those gods needs details, both personal and church-related.

 

[Kristivas]

My biggest, before anything else is this...if this is YOUR campaign world, YOUR homebrew, YOUR creation...then why OH WHY would you want to be basing the entire pantheon's alignment system around the one that is NOT your favorite?!

That utterly baffles me. This is YOURS, man! Make it EXACTLY what you want. If the 4e alignment breakdown is not that for you, then why are you using it?!

Perhaps I should have been a little more clear. 4E isn't my favorite edition, but I really do appreciate their alignment system. I like the simplicity of it compared to the earlier versions.

However, why are the Six Spirits necessarily separate from the Rulers or the Unbound? Do/could/should they not be put in one or the other? Is there some mythological reason/significance that hasn't been presented for this separation?

The Six spirits are an embodiment of their essence, rather than specific powers. A Shaman-type character who chose to worship the "Ancestor" spirit, for example, would be worshipping his own Ancestors and calling to them for power/aid/advice. A Druid who chose Nature and Water would serve to protect those forces, but those forces aren't exactly set up as the pantheon. There isn't one water God, and a fire God. They're essences that imbue power to mortals who faithfully battle for their interests and protection, without the ego and central focus of a deity.

The Black Queen seems to exist in something of a quandry of contrariness. Is she necessary as an "outside [of the factions]" figure?

Why would she NOT be considered, were one to look at her portfolio I'd assume "Unbound"?...But then, by the description of wanting to gain all powers as her own (which has NOTHING to do and indeed seems contradictory with her portfolio), when you have "Tyranny and Domination" thrown in with the "Rule of Order"...should she, then, not be under the Rule of Order?

Or (as she appears so obviously to my eyes) is she SUPPOSED to be the [traditional/pre-D&D/mythologoical] Tiamat figure of the raging/roiling monster-dragon (right down to the traditional 5-headsed imagery a.k.a. her 5 demi-god children...each of whom, I'd assume to be assigned one of evil/chromatic dragonkind) who exists prior to, in spite of, and for the ultimate undoing of the "organized/usable/safe for mortal creatures" universe?

Does she predate the Rulers and Unbound? The Spirits? Since it has been explicitly stated that the Pale Warden is a mortal-made-divine hero figure, it would seem he comes last/later to thwart the Black Queen...so where does she fall in the birth of the cosmos and/or the other gods? Her spheres of influence would suggest she did not/could not exist before the world was made and ultimately corrupted at some point of its creation (at which point things like decay and pestilence can come into existence and all the rest of her protfolio follows from there).

I would say, if you wanted to lessen your number of deities, you could always disperse the spirit things, "air, earth, fire, water, nature and ancestors" among other existing deities.

The Black Queen was once part of The Unbound, and likewise had a sort of a counterpart/foe in the Rule of Order. Just over a thousand years prior, she was able to fulfill an epic plan in which she murdered her foe and used his essence for two distinct, unholy purposes.

1. The first was to give herself enough power to hold off the assaults of the other Gods joining together against her after putting her plan into play.
2. The second was to imbue her 10 most loyal, most powerful followers. This is where the High Necrolords were created. More powerful than any other spellcaster previously seen upon Connoleath, the High Necrolords were able to use their newfound abilities to raise undead and evil demi-human armies in a very rapid amount of time.

(Additionally, it is with some of these High Necrolords with whom she mated to create her demigod spawn.)

Deities on Connoleath aren't listed as the traditional Greater, Intermediate, Lesser deities. One is either a God, or they aren't (except in the case of a Demigod). Their power levels are generally dependent on the numbers of followers that have. Those within a Faction (such as the Unbound), also share some of their powers among themselves. Even the deity with the fewest followers still gains additional strength just from a "shared pool" as the others within his or her faction. Which is why it's generally better to be in a faction. Sure, you're limited by what you're allowed to do based on the rules of the Celestial Conflict, but you at least have backup and more power than you'd have alone.

It simply wasn't enough for The Black Queen. She wanted it all, and she didn't want to wait forever.

1. Place the Six Spirits (are they getting names, btw? and if not, why not?) under the Balance.

They're not really getting names because there isn't just one singular Spirit of Fire, or some God representing fire itself.
A Cleric who had chosen Fire and Earth would pray to those aspects. Casting Flame Strike, for example, he might speak along these lines.
"I cry out to the purifying Spirit of Flame! Let my enemies be consumed in the righteous fire, their forms scattered to ash and cinder! Let those remains feed new life, worthy to take steps upon this sacred land!"

The Balance is just as concerned with power as the Rule of Order and The Unbound. They don't want either of those two sides gaining too much of it and causing calamity (as The Black Queen did). The Spirits don't care. They don't care which Gods rule, so long as the Gods don't interfere with their aspect in the natural order.

The Spirits of Water would rise up if you were polluting the oceans. They wouldn't care if you're army is conquering cities and throwing babies over the walls. They don't really have "morality" and "ego". They seek only to preserve the world and their necessary place in it.

2. I would swap Shanir Valathoss and, at first glance (my initial instinct), the Steel Lady. Maintaining 5 each for Order and Unbound, but the placement of these two, in particular, irks me.

I had intended for Shanir to oppose The Shade. Where The Shade's assassin-minded followers destroy their enemies, Shanir's would seek to manipulate. Using charm, trickery, blackmail. Seeming to work "by the law", getting you by technicalities, rather than just having you killed outright.

I saw the Steel Lady opposing Viasera. Where Viasera is a careful planner and strategist, The Steel Lady is all about Courage and Glory. They're both battle-minded deities, where you might view Viasera as a heavily armored warrior with sword and shield, carefully defending and waiting for an opening. The Steel Lady, meanwhile, would be overwhelmingly wailing away with a two-handed axe or two weapons, throwing in all she had passionately. Both methods seem to have their time and places during battle.

Though, I shall give this some new thoughts based on your suggestions.

3. The Black Queen has 5 demi-gods to throw at and confound to poor, valiant, against all odds, Pale Warden...does he need some subservient spirit creatures throw at them? (I mean, obviosuly, he has his court of ancient gold and silver dragons to help...I suppose that would work against demi-gods

He's kind of against the odds here, isn't he? What's upsetting to the other deities is how quickly his worship has grown in 500 years. As he was the first one to destroy one of the High Necrolords and set free one of the city-states, people have begun to flock to him. While the other Gods have been helpless to prevent The Black Queen's sudden rise and domination on the mortal plane, The Pale Warden seems to be (though in truth, the others were trying) the first one to be able to do anything to help them.

He knew that to align himself with a Faction would probably be his undoing. After all, the factions had been unable to stop The Black Queen. As she had betrayed her own faction, his joining one of them would swing them out of Balance, and he wasn't content to join with The Balance, since they seem to be the types to sit and debate, while he wanted to act.

Being alone is kind of his thing. All he needs, as far as he's concerned, is for the other deities to simply leave him alone. Allow him to see the battle with the Queen to it's end. One of his rallying calls for his followers is that all he needs, is their faith.

Ironically enough, ignoring the other factions and focusing solely on the Queen probably would be the thing that gets him taken down in the long run. Not to mention that the Queen isn't an easy foe. If practically all of the other Gods didn't hate her already, she likely could have destroyed the Warden well before he got himself established.

But, he's young (as far as Gods go) and zealous. A brooding hero, standing alone, that young men strive to be like.

I think gaining a special follower or underlings like that could be something awesome to happen further along in the story. Especially after his "tide of kicking ass" starts to ebb and the battle becomes more drawn out.

Well, for one, take Shanir Valathoss out of Order and put her in Unbound..., "Deceit, Secrets, Greed, Trickery and Charm" there is nothing in that portfolio that is to the benefit or support of "Order"...unless you are thinking that one must have Order to twist and damage, so that things like Trickery, Secrets and Deceit can exist at all....but that's a bit stretchy for me.

Bottom line, that goddess' presence among the Order faction rubbed me wrong immediately.

And while I can see the Unbounded side of "Glory and Courage" when you add in "Law and Protection", that implies all kinds of structure that can only exist/further the Rule of Order...besides one of the other Order gods already has "Law" in their portfolio. The Steel Lady, to me obviously, belongs in the Order faction.

Yes, the Law portfolio was a mistake left over from an earlier incarnation.

As for re-arranging herself and Shanir, I explained above why they're where they are, though am considering ways to move them to bring them more in line.

2) I don't see how/why the Black Queen and her portfolio of "pestilence, decay, necromancy, and undeath, darkness and slime" justifies her NOT being in the Unbound. That all sounds, instinctively, like stuff that does not wish to be or operate within bounds.

If it is strictly this idea that she wants all the power for herself, again, tyranny and domination are in the Rule of Order...and nothing about "pestilence,decay,necromancy, undeath, slime or darkness" says (again, to me) "GIMME power"...unless you could say pestilence seeks to "spread"...but decay, necromancy, undeath, darkness and even pestilence...all of these things say "I want to "TAKE AWAY [light/life/health/etc]" not "ACCUMUALTE MORE [power]." Everything over which she holds sway is about detracting and lessening...see where I'm hitting a symbollic speed bump?

You're quite right that she belonged in the Unbound, and very much was, until she turned her back on them. While her domains don't necessarily say "Gimme Power", her personality (paranoid, violent, vain, etc) does. She's like an evil, spoiled child. She wants to claim as many Domains as possible, in order to spread her influence. With as far as she's gone already, there isn't a chance to turn back now. None of the pantheon would forgive her. She's locked into her plan.

Oh, and really not so much a "rubbing the wrong way" as a "tilt of the head with an expression of confusion"...how does "Tyrant, Domination and Law", in any conceivable way, include/incorporate "Mysticism"?

The Tyrant wants to impose his views on anyone he can, in whatever manner. Mysticism has to do with an order devoted to him that uses magic (or psionics) and alchemy to gain control over important individuals. What better way to influence the world than to control a Senator before a critical vote, or using a Monarch as a puppet on the day of a big announcement.

What immediately rubbed me the RIGHT way was the nice handling/skewing/refluffing of Tiamat a.k.a. 5-head dragon a.k.a. the Black Queen with 5 demi-god children [each of them have a color of dragon associated with them?] and Bahamut a.k.a. Platinum Dragon a.k.a. Paladine a.k.a. "the Paladin" a.k.a. a "Pale" Warden.

Very nice. I enjoyed that.

I also very much like the idea of separate teams of deities that are NOT based on the "good/evil" acess but the "law/chaos" one instead (though I do urge you to use the alignment system that IS your favorite).

Thanks. Though the number of demi-god followers wasn't done intentionally. The simplest reason for her having so much more than the Warden was for it to look like an overwhelming and extremely one-sided conflict, which.. quite honestly, it is. She has so much, while he stands alone, and still continues to fight. It's one of the things that has drawn so many mortals to him in such a short time.

Dunno if I'd toss anything...I just think some more thought and detailed reasons [mythologically relevant to the world] are needed for who's where and why. Also, I submit that the Six Spirits, if they are indeed meant to be gods of these 6 "spiritual areas" i.e. the supreme embodiment of Air, Earth, Nature, etc..., then they should be named. Or at least given titles like "Steel Lady" or "Aura of Joy" but something beyond just "the Spirit of Air", "the Spirit of Nature"...if there is such a thing as THE "Spirit of Ancestors [like a guardian thereof, as opposed to all of the individual ancestral spirits] then it deserves a name.

Yeah, answered the above. The Six aren't gods, they're simply the embodiment. Fire, for example, will answer when called.. but the alignment of the representative it sends isn't for certain.

Details for the deities are being written. The names, short details, and the blurbs explaining are by no means the end. I really wanted to make sure I had an interesting layout and placement before I started to fill in the individual entries and history.

What/where/how and why the Black Queen and her children exist in addition to/outside of the other gods is still something I don't quite get. Where/how does she fit into the mythology?

The Pale Warden's story seems set from what you say below but where the Black Queen came from/fits in just isn't making sense for me.

Also, for that matter, how/where/why did all of the existing deities come from and how were they split into these factions? I note the deceit goddess has the same last name [see below] as two of the Balance deities. Are they siblings? Parents and child? Soemthing else?

Got the first two questions answered above.

The Valathoss are indeed related. Kale and Kora are twins, while Shanir is their younger sibling. Shanir turned from The Balance, lured away by her ex-lover, the Tyrant.

As for where they came from, I have two different cosmology ideas. I'm not sure which I'm going for.
A. Is along the lines of Connoleath being a very old world, that once ended in calamity and was rebuilt, with the new (current) gods either being the children or creations of the previous gods, who were forced to give up their power for their failures (the world being destroyed).
(part of the campaign focus would be finding the remnants of the Old World.)
B. Would be your standard cosmology of a "designer" who created the world and the Gods, and set them into play before stepping away. A friend asked me if I were going to have a "Lord Ao" or the "High God" watching over, and I said no. Even if The Black Queen wins and kills everyone else, there's no "Angry Mother or Father" who will come sort the mess.

I am not a huge fan of deities having or requiring surnames. If they have an epithet or title, that makes tons of sense. "Apollo Sunspeaker" or "Odin All-Father" for example. So if those last names translate as something specific to those deities in one of your world's languages, then bully. But if they're just some means of differeniating them from all the other deities named " Kale" in your campaign universe..."No, no! Not Kale Jones from down the street. I mean that lovely Kale Smith from Nextville."...then drop them.

I'll look into this. I've no idea why I started giving them last names as I have. I guess I really wanted the factions to be different from each other. The Unbound deities pretty much describe them by name. The Bloodletter, even without knowing his portfolios, you can guess he's a pretty angry, badass guy. He wears his "heart on his sleeve", while Viasera Bloodmourn is a little hard to figure out in name only.

I do see your point, however.

Think that's all for now/first glance. But, again, some good stuff going on in here.
Look forward to hearing how things progress.
--Steel Dragons

I really do appreciate you taking the time to give me some feedback here.

A lot of these questions fall into place by themselves if you take the man-made-god approach. If the primitive or civilized peoples of the world created the gods, who would the gods be?

Did the people start by making gods for each of the forces of nature they wanted to define?

Did they consolidate some gods into one god, and limit access to that god through a church, or a ruler?

Are there natural or man-made events that would be best described by interactions or histories between the gods?

Did some poets gain fame by telling stories about the gods?

You have too many gods for just one culture. But if there are several cultures worshiping these gods, then that make more sense. The list of gods looks good, but remember that gods are as interesting, or more, than real people. So each of those gods needs details, both personal and church-related.

Man didn't create the Gods, though the Gods and Man are tied together.

Man needs the Gods (so the gods would tell it). Not only for faith/hope/etc and aid in day-to-day life, but to give them principles. More importantly than that, to guide their souls after death.

The Gods need Man (true, even if the gods don't wish to admit it). The more loyal souls a God has, the more power. As Man tends to be fickle, the factions were formed based on self-interest. A God who didn't wish to perish when her follower count dropped for whatever reason, needs allies. They need power until they can "get back on their feet".

Some folks, rather than pray solely to one god, will often pray to the faction. For example:
The Fighter Milgrahm Foehammer follows the Steel Lady in the Unbound. One fateful eve Milgrahm's allies convince him to try sneaking into a well-guarded lair, rather than brawl his way in. So, the ordinarily loud, reckless Milgrahm offers a silent prayer to The Shade for aid in sneaking into the aforementioned lair. The Steel Lady isn't offended by this, because Milgrahm was still begging aid from her faction.

During massive or dangerous undertakings, folks often pray to the entire faction of the God they worship.
"I pray by the grace of the Rule of Order that I am able to defend my homestead from those marauders."

The rest of your questions are more easily answered in upcoming papers I plan to write. I intend to fill in histories and answer a lot of the questions above, I was simply getting my "base" in order before trying to build atop it.

Thanks for posting, and I hope I answered everything.

 

[Tovec]

I haven't read your replies, yet, but I will a little later.

Your questions:
1. Do you have too many factions?
Sort of. I think your factions are poorly used and ill defined. Too many depends on the scope (look at below notes).
2. Do you have too many deities?
Yes, I think you do. I think there isn't a great enough variety of deities and that there is a lot of overlap. Some overlap is okay, but you have how many gods of death and life?
3. Is there a better way you could set this up?
Yes, but 'how' depends on your responses to my questions below.
4. Rub me the wrong way?
See below.
5. Did you do anything right?
You did a lot of things right. You were able to put this much creativity into the gods and I assume you have a decent idea for how most of these gods are supposed to work. I even see a lot of parallels with several of these gods, namely in the unbound group, to my own pantheon. It is interesting, but IMHO a bit of a mess.
6. If I could discard things, what would I toss?
Right off the bat, I would toss the six spirits. They only fight the black queen and nothing more. They don't seem to be big movers and shakers and for that reason they seem dull to me. They also could be rolled into other gods, I think. Their only purpose seems to be to put life into nature but I think that can be done better other ways.
7. I would keep, more or less unchanged; the unbound, black queen, pale warden. Reorganize the others, but you can keep most of them in some form.
8. Suggestions or comments I want to throw out there?
YES.

My comments and questions:
You say you are using 4e alignments, but that they are not necessarily your favourite? What would be your favourite?

As far as the factions. I would lose the six spirits entirely. They are too specific yet vague. I'd probably merge them in with the other gods, you have a fire god and sun god and they talk of birth/renewal, perhaps merge.

These factions don't make sense, we don't know why some are bound, balance, in the black queen's court. In fact the ones I find most compelling are the unbound. Everything else seemed better defined by something in existing DnD lore.

So, more description on the factions would be good.

More descriptions on the individual gods would be good too. Why is there a god of death and a god of murder, why one of chaos and destruction and one of suffering, etc. You have many but not a lot that defines them...

What kind of pantheon do you have in mind when making these gods? Are you looking for one that best works in a game, a setting, in general? Are they supposed to model the myriad amounts in greek, or the warriors of norse, perhaps the nature spirits of many cultures? You need to define the scope. How are the gods used and what their role is. I see a lot of games have them as where the cleric gets their powers but then have them disappear for the most part, as an example. A couple of your gods seem to be active in the world, but are they all? Do they all live in the world, or somewhere else, do they escort souls to the other side/live on the other side of some veil? What role do the gods play, or are they just really strong people who happen to be immortal and have uber-power?

How are the gods in the black queen's court demigods, what does being a demigod mean? Why are ice or scalykind in the list - try looking to the four horsemen. If she is the enemy of all the other factions, why hasn't she been killed off by them by now? How was 'rule of law' her counterpart? How did she make the necrolords, but then her children are hybrids?

Why is the pale warden by himself? Sure he is an ascended mortal, but what does that matter? Should Vecna be counted alone when discussing the gods? He was a paladin, is he the god of paladins, if so, was he the first paladin, or was there a god of paladins before him?

How tight are these sub-pantheons, they really should be pantheons in their own right to be fair, but ignoring that.. Do they NOT interact with other groups, actively fight them, subtle oppose them, other?

From the beginning, you seemed to state that you wanted more of a L-C bend as opposed to a G-E one. If this is true then I really don't think you achieved that. If I missed the point then let me know.

The balance as defined later on do not really seem to make sense, their role as gods is to just work with whomever will maintain balance.. but the gods themselves do not reflect that. If anything they seem above/beyond the concerns of the other factions, not siding with them.

Were you trying to define the gods by the following: traits, forces (of nature), forces of life/cosmic forces, emotion? If so I have ideas, and this would work better IMHO but it requires a rehaul of sorts from where I'm sitting.
In that case, I would make emotion more varied, cosmic forces less caring but more powerful/wide in scope, the nature ones rolled in with traits and make traits the normal gods. Emotional gods would still be there, but they would be rash and lesser in power compared to the other gods and probably separated along those lines. Traits to one corner, emotions to the other, both being worshiped. Then I would have 'other' which is mostly those those don't fall into any other category like your black queen and pale warden, but mostly this other would be 'trait'-like. But yeah, that's just my first thoughts. I'll read your other replies and get back to you.

 

[Kristivas]

First off, Tovec, I'd like to say thank you for taking the time to give me such a detailed reply. I do appreciate the criticisms. I think I've addressed some of your concerns (at least in explaining my reasonings) with a previous reply here. Though I've not finalized anything just yet and am still open to change.

I'm taking some pain meds for a twisted ankle, so if I seem a bit off/rambly in this post, that's why.

6. If I could discard things, what would I toss?
Right off the bat, I would toss the six spirits. They only fight the black queen and nothing more. They don't seem to be big movers and shakers and for that reason they seem dull to me. They also could be rolled into other gods, I think. Their only purpose seems to be to put life into nature but I think that can be done better other ways.

Connoleath has many civilized areas and even a few massive cities, though through much of the wide-open lands are full of savage tribes. I had a culture of people in my head all beholden to these spirits for guidance and power. Uncaring about the "civilized" gods until their plots spill out onto the rest of the world. The Spirits don't impart any morals. The tribes act on what they think is right, what their Acestors tell them, or try and interpret signs of the spirits the best way they can.

Though, I'm now considering how to do that differently.

My comments and questions:
You say you are using 4e alignments, but that they are not necessarily your favourite? What would be your favourite?

I don't care for 4e, but I do like the way they've done alignments.

These factions don't make sense, we don't know why some are bound, balance, in the black queen's court. In fact the ones I find most compelling are the unbound. Everything else seemed better defined by something in existing DnD lore.

So, more description on the factions would be good.

How are the gods in the black queen's court demigods, what does being a demigod mean? Why are ice or scalykind in the list - try looking to the four horsemen. If she is the enemy of all the other factions, why hasn't she been killed off by them by now? How was 'rule of law' her counterpart? How did she make the necrolords, but then her children are hybrids?

Why is the pale warden by himself? Sure he is an ascended mortal, but what does that matter? Should Vecna be counted alone when discussing the gods? He was a paladin, is he the god of paladins, if so, was he the first paladin, or was there a god of paladins before him?

I'm certainly working on that. I really wanted to make sure I had a good base before putting the rest of what was in my head down in black and white. At that point, it gets harder to go back and change things.

I can answer some.
The Unbound faction are deities that live passionately. Passion can be very good, or very bad. It's extremes. They're together because they recognize the others in their pantheon are just as passionate. They won't be stifled by their brethren, even if they disagree on things (like good vs evil).

The Rule of Order are nearly the opposite. They would like to see more order in the world, viewing it as something that needed to be constrained. Some of them, like the evil-aligned Tyrant would see the world ruled with an iron-fist ala 1984, while some of the other less-awful gods would just want to see more order maintained, though in far more benevolent ways.

The Balance are like most of us. "You need both, and if the boat steers too far one way, it'll topple!" We can't have anarchy and passions unbound, because we'd destroy society. If there's too much order, we're all slaves. They have to sit in the middle and manipulate, because if they didn't, eventually one side's plots would finally take hold and that's the beginning of the end.

Everything was all well and good until a spoiled child didn't get her way. The Black Queen was always a nightmare, and her religion was more like large cults than an organized church. She was a Necromancer goddess with a love for spreading undeath and pestilence. Unlike the other gods, she was not happy with her lot. After murdering her rival in the Rule of Order, she used said rival's power. I explained above, the essence of the dead god allowed her to curse the other 3 factions. They were cursed to never come to terms on how to deal with her, locked in eternal bickering.

The Pale Warden was created apart from the factions, thus not subject to the curse. He's really the only one free to properly act against her.

More descriptions on the individual gods would be good too. Why is there a god of death and a god of murder, why one of chaos and destruction and one of suffering, etc. You have many but not a lot that defines them...

The God of Death is all about keeping souls moving along toward the Afterlife. That things that need to meet their end actually do meet their end.
The God of Murder, on the other hand, is about the kill. The violent taking of life. The sorrow that follows. The thrill of the chase, when a faithful murderer gets away. The fear that causes everyone to check under their bed, or pray that the God of Murder seeks his entertainment elsewhere.

It probably would have helped a great deal if I'd written in more personal blurbs about them.

What kind of pantheon do you have in mind when making these gods? Are you looking for one that best works in a game, a setting, in general? Are they supposed to model the myriad amounts in greek, or the warriors of norse, perhaps the nature spirits of many cultures? You need to define the scope. How are the gods used and what their role is. I see a lot of games have them as where the cleric gets their powers but then have them disappear for the most part, as an example. A couple of your gods seem to be active in the world, but are they all? Do they all live in the world, or somewhere else, do they escort souls to the other side/live on the other side of some veil? What role do the gods play, or are they just really strong people who happen to be immortal and have uber-power?

How are the Gods used? Per usual, really. They grant their Clerics and Paladins and such their powers. They are active in the world, but with limits.

On a God's home plane, their rule is law. On the mortal world, the Gods are only as powerful as their influence there. While each god can manifest an Avatar, there are limits to what their Avatar can do. Other gods will use their Avatars and followers to undermine a rival god's plan. Oftentimes, to get anything accomplished, it's best to simply ask your mortal followers and stay under the radar, so to speak.

The God of Death carries the dead to be judged by Gultandon, Lord of Justice. Though he is a member of the Rule of Order, he will judge anyone based on their merits and not their views or alignment.

I was looking to create a patheon to serve a very large world. Areas under the sway of the Rule of Order might have more laws and might be a bit more restrained. Good governments might have something like a safety net for their citizens, while Evil governments would have a police state-type environment. Areas of the Unbound would be more free, through laws and morals or society constraints.

Then, you'd have these savage lands where none of that stuff matters. On the surface, they seem like they'd be under The Unbound, because they're tribal savages, but then you eat with your left hand in the presence of the Cheiftan's daughter and in the next moment, you're being decapitated. They may not have a lot of laws, but the ones they do are followed to the extreme. These tribes don't care about the views of the city-dwellers. They've learned how to behave based on their ancestor spirits and by studying their chosen element. An evil Shaman who's chosen water might choose depriving captured foes of water, while sacrificing to the Spirits by drowning victims. Where would they learn this? Their Ancestors, who learned it from their Ancestors, who learned it all the way back to times where people as a whole were savage as hell. For whatever reasons, the Spirits answer and give their Shamen power.

Some theorize that the reason the spirits imbue their mortal followers is to keep civilization from expanding too far into the wilderness.

Though, I could end up just dispersing the spirit portfolio to the Gods. That might keep things less-confusing.

How are the gods in the black queen's court demigods, what does being a demigod mean? Why are ice or scalykind in the list - try looking to the four horsemen. If she is the enemy of all the other factions, why hasn't she been killed off by them by now? How was 'rule of law' her counterpart? How did she make the necrolords, but then her children are hybrids?

Why is the pale warden by himself? Sure he is an ascended mortal, but what does that matter? Should Vecna be counted alone when discussing the gods? He was a paladin, is he the god of paladins, if so, was he the first paladin, or was there a god of paladins before him?

A demigod is the offspring of a deity and a powerful mortal. Not just any old Joe can have sex with a goddess or god's avatar and spit out a demigod. If such was the case, the world would be full of them from the Aura of Joy alone. Most mortal women to become pregnant by a god simply have the best of their own species in the child. It could be exceptionally smart, beautiful, and strong, but it's still just "a human who got lucky in ability scores". They grow old, they die.

The only known cases of Demigods being born are the vile children of The Black Queen. The mortals whom she mated with had all been imbued by her, using the death of a deity to fuel their creation. It changed them in many ways. High Necrolord Syzil Sylzan Sylzek the Serpent actually became serpentlike after his transformation. He was able to change himself into giant snake or hydra at will. His eyes became slitted, his tongue forked. He could dislocate his jaw and swallow children whole, before his death at the hands of the Pale Warden. Guess who Fathered the "Scalykind" demigod, Muur!

I'd originally considered a Four Horsemen set-up, but I wanted it to be more personal. I wanted these "odd children" to have really twisted origins.

High Necrolords of The Black Queen
Gandaalon Halkavar the Blighted -x
Krale the Hungerer -x
Shidira Laxwan the Abomination
Tammoran Drasic the Sadistic -x (fathered Poma)
Yelikmarr the Coldbringer -x
Cramiras Den Trangor the Mad -x (fathered Grel)
Syzil Sylzan Sylzek the Serpent -x (fathered Muur)
Aritanna the Malefic -x
Ghon Draveel the Black Heart (fathered Siia)
Bemir Al'hanzishma the Covetous (fathered Jorl)
-x = Dead in the current campaign setting

The balance as defined later on do not really seem to make sense, their role as gods is to just work with whomever will maintain balance.. but the gods themselves do not reflect that. If anything they seem above/beyond the concerns of the other factions, not siding with them.

Generally, they are above their concerns. The Lord of Power, for example, really doesn't care about the Celestial Conflict, until it threatens to spill out of hand. He cares about magic. It's only when the actual balance of power is threatened that he annoyingly ceases his studies (or whatever he's doing) and intervenes. The Lady of Coin will sell to both participants of a battle. If one side starts to win, it's in her best interest to see that side fall back down a peg. Keeps things even, keeps sales high.

Were you trying to define the gods by the following: traits, forces (of nature), forces of life/cosmic forces, emotion? If so I have ideas, and this would work better IMHO but it requires a rehaul of sorts from where I'm sitting.

Basically, though with exceptions. The Black Queen was always an exception, because she betrayed the natural order of things. The Spirits don't care about the deity-politics. The Balance don't really care about the politics, unless one of the sides starts to get too much of an upper hand.

In that case, I would make emotion more varied, cosmic forces less caring but more powerful/wide in scope, the nature ones rolled in with traits and make traits the normal gods. Emotional gods would still be there, but they would be rash and lesser in power compared to the other gods and probably separated along those lines. Traits to one corner, emotions to the other, both being worshiped. Then I would have 'other' which is mostly those those don't fall into any other category like your black queen and pale warden, but mostly this other would be 'trait'-like. But yeah, that's just my first thoughts. I'll read your other replies and get back to you.

I really do appreciate the advice. When I go to start editing this weekend, I'll keep this handy.

Again, I apologize if I rambled during this. Pain meds, woo lol.

 

[steeldragons]

Just as a suggestion (and something I might just take on/adopt myself), if you decide you ARE going to disperse the Spirits into the other gods, you could go the "Tarot" symbolism route to help/have things move smoothly...at least as far as I'm thinking, off the top of my head. To whit:

Earth = Pentacles, alternately pictured as Coins, and known as "Diamonds" in the standard playing card deck. Seems to be the "Spirit of Earth", right down to the connection with money and earthly prosperity belongs firmly to the Lady of Coin.
Air = Swords and known in the standard playing card deck as "Spades". The freedom, (and sometimes fickleness), of Thought and Observation (i.e. Air, being everywhere, sees all. Seems natural why so many major earthly pantheon father-king deities became personified as Sky/Storm gods affiliated with the air). This could easily be connected to the Lord of Power, the power of the mind (Intelligence for mages) to go with the power of magic or associate it directly to the Scholar.

There's 2 right there in the Balance already. Now, you could continue in this vein to carry over the "the spirits don't care" original premise to the Balance (who also, most of the time, don't care). OR, you could through the other remaining "Spirits" into the Ruled and the Unbound respectively, as makes sense.

Fire = Wands, alternately "Staves" or "Rods", and known in standard playing cards [somewhat literally] as the "Club." Passion, Creativity, and the taking of Action! Sounds like the Spirit of Fire should find a solid home among the Unbound...the Aura of Joy comes to mind.

Water = Cups, alternatively refferred to as "Chalices", and known in standard playing cards as the "Heart" for reasons that will become apparent right now. The Cups is the suit of Emotion, of Love, of Empathy (and thus feeling with/for others)...Now thing could go pretty much anywhere. You could give this to the Death god (caring about what happens to the souls?) but that places it back in the Balance...or the Spirit of Water is submerged within the Bloodletter? (Anger, wrath, the chaotic/fluid nature of water and emotions? Might be a stretch...but could work.) I don't see a smooth way to place this in the Rule of Order (to offset Fire being in the Unbound). Water is simply too...not ordered. lol.

But that's ok. 2 spirits subsumed in the Balance, 2 into Unbound and the remaining 2, seem a fairly smooth fit into the Rule of Order:
Nature...obviously, wanting to keep all things in their places and ordered...the Order of Balance, as it were. As opposed to the "sit back and watch" balance of the Balance, whoever gets this spirit makes sure things stay IN Balance, ordered. Lord of Sun, I guess?

Ancestors, also, can go into the Rule of Order...at first glance, I'd say probably the goddess of Competition, Strategy and Strength as it seems Ancestors are most likely to be called on for those things.

Or both Nature and Ancestors could be disceminated among all of the 4, no longer being directly "Spirits of X" but if you need Revenge, then (through the lord of Justice) call on your Vengeful Ancestors. If you want protection/safety, call on the Protector Ancestors (as watched over by the Lord of the Sun), etc...

Anyway, just some thoughts that came. Good luck and have fun with it!
--SD

 

[Tovec]

First off, Tovec, I'd like to say thank you for taking the time to give me such a detailed reply. I do appreciate the criticisms. I think I've addressed some of your concerns (at least in explaining my reasonings) with a previous reply here. Though I've not finalized anything just yet and am still open to change.

I'm taking some pain meds for a twisted ankle, so if I seem a bit off/rambly in this post, that's why.

No problem at all. And believe me I understand the meds thing, I've been sick off and on for about six months but you happened to catch me when I honestly have no other major responsibilities and so I shall continue but if I drop off in the future that is probably why (things caught up with me).

Connoleath has many civilized areas and even a few massive cities, though through much of the wide-open lands are full of savage tribes. I had a culture of people in my head all beholden to these spirits for guidance and power. Uncaring about the "civilized" gods until their plots spill out onto the rest of the world. The Spirits don't impart any morals. The tribes act on what they think is right, what their Acestors tell them, or try and interpret signs of the spirits the best way they can.

Though, I'm now considering how to do that differently.

Okay, then there are few things that go with that. If the primary reason for the ancestor/elemental group is due to these 'uncivilized people' then that could mean a number of things. My best suggestion is to make those people worship the 'spirits' as a pantheon on their own, while not acknowledging the other gods. Beyond this, why have them call upon water or fire and instead have them call upon the river X or the fire-mountain Y? Fits a little better with spiritualism in real world examples. I would have them call upon the fire-mountain but then still have fire as in renewal and healing be rolled into another god. So, they refuse to acknowledge those gods but the gods (may or may not) get that power anyway. This is a perfect example, though, of what [MENTION=6685730]DMMike[/MENTION] (I believe) was saying. You need the spirit group because of a human group, not because they really need to be separate.

I don't care for 4e, but I do like the way they've done alignments.

Yeah, I got that from the replies, that's fine then. I'm a little surprised you do considering the amount you seem to rely on a Law-Chaos axis with this cosmology but whatever. Maybe that is something that is only meant to be behind the curtain, either way it is the last I'll mention it.

I'm certainly working on that. I really wanted to make sure I had a good base before putting the rest of what was in my head down in black and white. At that point, it gets harder to go back and change things.

Oh trust me I know it, I'm on my 6th incarnation of my gods. There are some who have dropped in an out but at this point I have approximately 2 that were there in the beginning and even they have changed a lot since the early incarnations.

I can answer some.
The Unbound faction are deities that live passionately. Passion can be very good, or very bad. It's extremes. They're together because they recognize the others in their pantheon are just as passionate. They won't be stifled by their brethren, even if they disagree on things (like good vs evil).

Okay, I like this, but I think it would work best if they were divvied up. What if the ones you have now are the major ones, but that this faction was mostly smaller (less powerful) gods who represent the different passions. That is more or less how the Greek-Romans did it. There are three (as far as I recall) gods for love in that pantheon. What if it were more like that? Then have the ones you have now be the leaders, or rulers or kings/queens of the passionate gods?

The Rule of Order are nearly the opposite. They would like to see more order in the world, viewing it as something that needed to be constrained. Some of them, like the evil-aligned Tyrant would see the world ruled with an iron-fist ala 1984, while some of the other less-awful gods would just want to see more order maintained, though in far more benevolent ways.

This is where I would merge with many of the balance gods. If you make the "rule of order" to be more cosmic things, things that are NOT passionate, not necessarily cold but more status quo - the lawful side of cosmos. It works well if chaos/passion (in this system I would not call the other side the unbound unless you have a good reason) is about creation and destruction, but constant change and renewal. Then law becomes about stability, edging toward sterility. They are about cataloging or maintaining the order of reality in a world of change. The stable rock in an swirling ocean. Something like that.

The Balance are like most of us. "You need both, and if the boat steers too far one way, it'll topple!" We can't have anarchy and passions unbound, because we'd destroy society. If there's too much order, we're all slaves. They have to sit in the middle and manipulate, because if they didn't, eventually one side's plots would finally take hold and that's the beginning of the end.

The balance in the above case is less 'maintaining' balance and more 'none of the above'. The black queen and pale warden go here. Minor note, why 'warden'? These would be gods were are less aspects or jobs of cosmos/nature and certainly not the ever changing whims of chaos/passion. They would be the ones who may side with the other groups but never join them. They may be powerful in their own right, for various reasons. Minor gods who are unaligned would then go here. Like I said, balance in this is more like the tide of the ocean, sliding toward one side or the other as their interests are served, as opposed to siding with one side or another in order to make the scales not topple.

Everything was all well and good until a spoiled child didn't get her way. The Black Queen was always a nightmare, and her religion was more like large cults than an organized church. She was a Necromancer goddess with a love for spreading undeath and pestilence. Unlike the other gods, she was not happy with her lot. After murdering her rival in the Rule of Order, she used said rival's power. I explained above, the essence of the dead god allowed her to curse the other 3 factions. They were cursed to never come to terms on how to deal with her, locked in eternal bickering.

The Pale Warden was created apart from the factions, thus not subject to the curse. He's really the only one free to properly act against her.

I understand that this is true, but it only works when you give the explanation. Let me put it another way. If we were looking to real pantheons (in real world) you would never have all the norse gods, then have loki sitting all alone in a completely different pantheon. They may not like what he does, but he is still part of the pantheon. It might be the part they don't talk to as much but he is still there. He probably still has a home in the norse-heaven somewhere. Even the devil in the abrahamic pantheon is part, he is contrary to all that is good (god and angels) but he is just the other side of the same coin.

Also, you never explained who her counterpart is, how that works, or why getting his power allows her to curse everyone else.
Same goes for the pale warden. Why do I want to keep calling him the pale knight. I like SD's take on tiamat/bahamut. I totally didn't see that.

The God of Death is all about keeping souls moving along toward the Afterlife. That things that need to meet their end actually do meet their end.
The God of Murder, on the other hand, is about the kill. The violent taking of life. The sorrow that follows. The thrill of the chase, when a faithful murderer gets away. The fear that causes everyone to check under their bed, or pray that the God of Murder seeks his entertainment elsewhere.

It probably would have helped a great deal if I'd written in more personal blurbs about them.

I've been working on my own gods, and I hugely love reading myth in general, so I was able to guess at this distinction. My point was that if you used 'killing' in place of 'murder', a change that most people would not be above making and not realizing the distinction, then they become very similar. You need to explain HOW, you need more of a description. Personal blurbs I think are kind of the flaw here. You are describing personalities and assigning alignment and affiliation based on those personalities. That can work, but only if you really up-play those personalities to the point that the personalities ARE them. Hypnos needs to be constantly asleep, not just cause people to be sleepy. That kind of thing.

How are the Gods used? Per usual, really. They grant their Clerics and Paladins and such their powers. They are active in the world, but with limits.

Well no, I think you misunderstood. This kind of echos DMMike; the norse were warriors and so they had norse warrior-gods. The egyptians were all about money in the afterlife and so their gods were all about money and how the afterlife worked. That isn't to say that people made the gods. But you are a person and you are, you need to think how people and the gods will play off eachother. I'm not clear, outside of the 'uncivilized people' from earlier, how the gods are meant to be used EXCEPT as a power-source. How much interaction is there going to be. If the gods live on another plane then how often do people see them - you mention it depends on their zones of influence. Do the gods have a stake in how many people follow them - are people a source of food?

On a God's home plane, their rule is law. On the mortal world, the Gods are only as powerful as their influence there. While each god can manifest an Avatar, there are limits to what their Avatar can do. Other gods will use their Avatars and followers to undermine a rival god's plan. Oftentimes, to get anything accomplished, it's best to simply ask your mortal followers and stay under the radar, so to speak.

Right, but here again you aren't really putting as much thought into it as I think you need to. In 95% of all pantheons you need to consider the cosmology that goes with it. You can have one or two basic planes (earth, earth+god's home) for all it matters but you need to decide how they work. In your case you describe four main sub-pantheons, do they live together? How would they live apart? Can all the gods kill people and take their souls? If the gods kill someone does the god of death show up and lead their soul to the afterlife? Is there an afterlife? How does the afterlife work? If the god of death is fighting someone else, does he stop the fight to go reap someone? Do they hang around until he shows up? Does he do it personally or have helpers? Do some people find their way to the beyond without him? If he is held up do they just wait, or become ghosts/other baddies? How does necromancy work if the god of death is shepherding souls to the afterlife? This is just one question with one god, granted a biggy but if you have a god of fire/renewal/birth (pelor ) then can he stop people from using a fireball without the right appeasement? How involved are the gods, I don't care if they appear as avatars or not, that comes last.

The God of Death carries the dead to be judged by Gultandon, Lord of Justice. Though he is a member of the Rule of Order, he will judge anyone based on their merits and not their views or alignment.

So there is a god of death, who takes people to the god of judgement. Okay, seems like an extra step. Also seems like BOTH of these guys should be part of rule of order to me. How does justice judge them, what are the requirements, what happens if people 'fail'? These details will matter more than how the gods are organized, as far as players go, most of the time. That of course assumes the players ever see that aspect. Can living people petition the god of death to release their friend? Can they pay the god of judgement for a better life for that friend?

I was looking to create a patheon to serve a very large world. Areas under the sway of the Rule of Order might have more laws and might be a bit more restrained. Good governments might have something like a safety net for their citizens, while Evil governments would have a police state-type environment. Areas of the Unbound would be more free, through laws and morals or society constraints.

Okay, at first it seemed like you possibly wanted different pantheons to work in different areas, now it seems like you want them just to have more influence in different areas so I'm still not positive on why you need different factions really.

Then, you'd have these savage lands where none of that stuff matters. On the surface, they seem like they'd be under The Unbound, because they're tribal savages, but then you eat with your left hand in the presence of the Cheiftan's daughter and in the next moment, you're being decapitated. They may not have a lot of laws, but the ones they do are followed to the extreme. These tribes don't care about the views of the city-dwellers. They've learned how to behave based on their ancestor spirits and by studying their chosen element. An evil Shaman who's chosen water might choose depriving captured foes of water, while sacrificing to the Spirits by drowning victims. Where would they learn this? Their Ancestors, who learned it from their Ancestors, who learned it all the way back to times where people as a whole were savage as hell. For whatever reasons, the Spirits answer and give their Shamen power.

Again, relating this back to what I was saying at the beginning. If you have a god in charge of ancestors, or whatever that closest relation would be, maybe part of your god of death or something. Anyway, the person worships their own personal ancestors and that is fine. That seems like a division of magic, but the ancestors 'god' would be something else entirely.

Some theorize that the reason the spirits imbue their mortal followers is to keep civilization from expanding too far into the wilderness.

That is just it. I don't see why the spirits are doing anything, or why they exist. If you have a spirit of the X river be the reason you have water-powers that is cool, but it seems like an appeal to that river and not to 'water' itself.

Though, I could end up just dispersing the spirit portfolio to the Gods. That might keep things less-confusing.

Honestly, even though I would put one god in stewardship of an element I wouldn't have just one god have access to that element. It is different to say that one god is the god of fire, and that everyone can use fireballs, and to say that one god is the god of fire and that NO ONE can use fireballs. You have a god of the sun? Make him the god of fire, that is his primary element. I would suggest other gods can still use fire/healing though. And the shamanistic groups still go to the fire-mountain for power, or seek to appease the great 'vulcan' of the mountain before they can use the power. But push comes to shove the sun god is also the god who decides if the volcano blows.

A demigod is the offspring of a deity and a powerful mortal. Not just any old Joe can have sex with a goddess or god's avatar and spit out a demigod. If such was the case, the world would be full of them from the Aura of Joy alone. Most mortal women to become pregnant by a god simply have the best of their own species in the child. It could be exceptionally smart, beautiful, and strong, but it's still just "a human who got lucky in ability scores". They grow old, they die.

The only known cases of Demigods being born are the vile children of The Black Queen. The mortals whom she mated with had all been imbued by her, using the death of a deity to fuel their creation. It changed them in many ways. High Necrolord Syzil Sylzan Sylzek the Serpent actually became serpentlike after his transformation. He was able to change himself into giant snake or hydra at will. His eyes became slitted, his tongue forked. He could dislocate his jaw and swallow children whole, before his death at the hands of the Pale Warden. Guess who Fathered the "Scalykind" demigod, Muur!

I'd originally considered a Four Horsemen set-up, but I wanted it to be more personal. I wanted these "odd children" to have really twisted origins.

High Necrolords of The Black Queen
Gandaalon Halkavar the Blighted -x
Krale the Hungerer -x
Shidira Laxwan the Abomination
Tammoran Drasic the Sadistic -x (fathered Poma)
Yelikmarr the Coldbringer -x
Cramiras Den Trangor the Mad -x (fathered Grel)
Syzil Sylzan Sylzek the Serpent -x (fathered Muur)
Aritanna the Malefic -x
Ghon Draveel the Black Heart (fathered Siia)
Bemir Al'hanzishma the Covetous (fathered Jorl)
-x = Dead in the current campaign setting

She had 10 necrolords and all of her demigod children are born of necrolords. Must suck to be the half that didn't give her a baby. Seems odd that she is the only one who figured out how to do this, considering how many gods there are and how many god-children you seem to have.

Also, it does NOT answer in what ways they are demigods. Are they just really weak gods or what?

If you want her children to have different aspects that is fine. That goes towards the 'born of necrolords' backstory I guess. Just seemed like an odd range for portfolios. How often are the demigods revered without their mother?

Generally, they are above their concerns. The Lord of Power, for example, really doesn't care about the Celestial Conflict, until it threatens to spill out of hand. He cares about magic. It's only when the actual balance of power is threatened that he annoyingly ceases his studies (or whatever he's doing) and intervenes. The Lady of Coin will sell to both participants of a battle. If one side starts to win, it's in her best interest to see that side fall back down a peg. Keeps things even, keeps sales high.

Right, but none of these things say 'balance' to me. Opportunistic, sure. But not balance. The lady of coin could probably still belong to this group, depending on how she acts and what she reflects, in my new suggested design. The lord of power would be a order god though. You say that yourself, he only ceases his studies when he needs to - otherwise he is cataloging and researching new spells - seems to fit with my above example.

Basically, though with exceptions. The Black Queen was always an exception, because she betrayed the natural order of things. The Spirits don't care about the deity-politics. The Balance don't really care about the politics, unless one of the sides starts to get too much of an upper hand.

Right, but these qualities don't reflect the gods you describe, except probably lord of power. They describe pragmatism and order. Cosmic balancing things. When you want the world to keep spinning AS IT IS, that is not-chaotic and in this paradigm that means lawful/order.