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<blockquote data-quote="steeldragons" data-source="post: 6124594" data-attributes="member: 92511"><p>Greetings Kristivas! </p><p></p><p>I LOVE working on pantheons and world-religions, mythologies and general campaign setting stuff. So this is all right up my alley. I hope what i have to offer might be helpful or, at least, give you some things to think about.</p><p></p><p>There's a lot of good stuff here. There's a few things I have questions on. </p><p></p><p>My biggest, before anything else is this...if this is YOUR campaign world, YOUR homebrew, YOUR creation...then why OH WHY would you want to be basing the entire pantheon's alignment system around the one that is NOT <em>your </em>favorite?! </p><p></p><p>That utterly baffles me. This is YOURS, man! Make it EXACTLY what you want. If the 4e alignment breakdown is not that for you, then why are you using it?!</p><p></p><p>Ok. That out of the way, let's start with the stuff you, specifically asked about...</p><p></p><p> </p><p>"Too many"?...well, I guess not. You basically have set up, though without the "lines" drawn along alignment, only 3. You have the "Orderly" faction, the "Neutral/Balance" faction and the "Anything Goes/[I'll dare to characterize as the] Chaos" faction. Your "6 spirits" aren't involved, the "Black Queen" and "Pale Warden" seem to kinda be in their own little dance..so your really only have 3 "factions" so I guess that's not too many.</p><p></p><p> </p><p>I don't know that there's such a thing. lol. I mean what are Forgotten Realms or Greywhawk up to these days? My own campaign world of Orea rounds out at, I think, about 25...only about half of whom are "greater powers/major deities" with the rest as lesser gods of areas of less importance or more specific interest, and a smattering of demi-gods. So your spread looks just about right to me.</p><p></p><p>However, why are the Six Spirits necessarily separate from the Rulers or the Unbound? Do/could/should they not be put in one or the other? Is there some mythological reason/significance that hasn't been presented for this separation? </p><p></p><p>The Black Queen seems to exist in something of a quandry of contrariness. Is she necessary as an "outside [of the factions]" figure?</p><p></p><p>Why would she NOT be considered, were one to look at her portfolio I'd assume "Unbound"?...But then, by the description of wanting to gain all powers as her own (which has NOTHING to do and indeed seems contradictory with her portfolio), when you have "Tyranny and Domination" thrown in with the "Rule of Order"...should she, then, not be under the Rule of Order?</p><p></p><p>Or (as she appears so obviously to my eyes) is she SUPPOSED to be the [traditional/pre-D&D/mythologoical] Tiamat figure of the raging/roiling monster-dragon (right down to the traditional 5-headsed imagery a.k.a. her 5 demi-god children...each of whom, I'd assume to be assigned one of evil/chromatic dragonkind) who exists prior to, in spite of, and for the ultimate undoing of the "organized/usable/safe for mortal creatures" universe?</p><p></p><p>Does she predate the Rulers and Unbound? The Spirits? Since it has been explicitly stated that the Pale Warden is a mortal-made-divine hero figure, it would seem he comes last/later to thwart the Black Queen...so where does she fall in the birth of the cosmos and/or the other gods? Her spheres of influence would suggest she did not/could not exist before the world was made and ultimately corrupted at some point of its creation (at which point things like decay and pestilence can come into existence and all the rest of her protfolio follows from there).</p><p></p><p>I would say, if you wanted to lessen your number of deities, you could always disperse the spirit things, "air, earth, fire, water, nature and ancestors" among other existing deities. </p><p></p><p> </p><p>That's kinda what I'm asking/bringing up...is there? Are the factions, as they exist now, necessary? Is it necessary or to the betterment of your world that a cleric of one of the Six Spirits will NOT be involved in or concerned with the actions of the clerics of gods who are in the "Celestial Conflict"? Are "Nature" and "Ancestors" such integral parts of reality...as "elemental" (as it were) to creation, as Air, Water, Fire and Earth, to warrant their own Spirits?</p><p></p><p>A "better way" in my opinion. hmmm...well, off the top of my head and what I've said thus far...</p><p> </p><p>1. Place the Six Spirits (are they getting names, btw? and if not, why not?) under the Balance. </p><p>2. I would swap Shanir Valathoss and, at first glance (my initial instinct), the Steel Lady. Maintaining 5 each for Order and Unbound, but the placement of these two, in particular, irks me.</p><p></p><p>So now your "teams" are 5 Rule of Order, 5 Unbound and 10 for Balance (making the maintenance of balance all that much more stable/easier on the acutal gods of balance because they have the support -however passive or active you want to portray it- of the 6 "spirits" under them.</p><p></p><p>3. The Black Queen has 5 demi-gods to throw at and confound to poor, valiant, against all odds, Pale Warden...does he need some subservient spirit creatures throw at them? (I mean, obviosuly, he has his court of ancient gold and silver dragons to help...I suppose that would work against demi-gods <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, for one, take <span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px">Shanir Valathoss out of Order and put her in Unbound...,<span style="font-size: 10px"> "</span>Deceit<span style="font-size: 10px">, Secrets</span>, Greed, Trickery<span style="font-size: 10px"> and</span> Charm" there is nothing in that portfolio that is to the benefit or support of "Order"<span style="font-size: 10px">...unless you are thinking that one must <span style="font-size: 10px">have Order to twist and damage, so that things like T<span style="font-size: 10px">rickery<span style="font-size: 10px">, Secrets and</span> Dec<span style="font-size: 10px">eit can exist</span></span></span></span> at all....but<span style="font-size: 10px"> that's a bit stretchy for me<span style="font-size: 10px">. </span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-size: 10px">B<span style="font-size: 10px">ottom line, that goddess' presence among the Order faction</span></span></span> rubbed me wrong immediately.</span></span></p><p></p><p>And while I can see the Unbounded side of "Glory and Courage" when you add in "Law and Protection", that implies all kinds of structure that can only exist/further the Rule of Order...besides one of the other Order gods already has "Law" in their portfolio. The Steel Lady, to me obviously, belongs in the Order faction.</p><p> </p><p>2) I don't see how/why the Black Queen and her portfolio of "pestilence, decay, necromancy, and undeath, darkness and slime" justifies her NOT being in the Unbound. That all sounds, instinctively, like stuff that does not wish to be or operate within bounds.</p><p></p><p>If it is strictly this idea that she wants all the power for herself, again, tyranny and domination are in the Rule of Order...and nothing about "pestilence,decay,necromancy, undeath, slime or darkness" says (again, to me) "GIMME power"...unless you could say pestilence seeks to "spread"...but decay, necromancy, undeath, darkness and even pestilence...all of these things say "I want to "TAKE AWAY [light/life/health/etc]" not "ACCUMUALTE MORE [power]." Everything over which she holds sway is about detracting and lessening...see where I'm hitting a symbollic speed bump? </p><p></p><p>Oh, and really not so much a "rubbing the wrong way" as a "tilt of the head with an expression of confusion"...how does "Tyrant, Domination and Law", in any conceivable way, include/incorporate "Mysticism"?</p><p></p><p> What immediately rubbed me the RIGHT way was the nice handling/skewing/refluffing of Tiamat a.k.a. 5-head dragon a.k.a. the Black Queen with 5 demi-god children [each of them have a color of dragon associated with them?] and Bahamut a.k.a. Platinum Dragon a.k.a. Paladine a.k.a. "the Paladin" a.k.a. a "Pale" Warden.</p><p></p><p>Very nice. I enjoyed that.</p><p></p><p>I also very much like the idea of separate teams of deities that are NOT based on the "good/evil" acess but the "law/chaos" one instead (though I do urge you to use the alignment system that IS your favorite).</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>Dunno if I'd toss anything...I just think some more thought and detailed reasons [mythologically relevant to the world] are needed for who's where and why. Also, I submit that the Six Spirits, if they are indeed meant to be <em>gods</em> of these 6 "spiritual areas" i.e. the supreme embodiment of Air, Earth, Nature, etc..., then they should be named. Or at least given titles like "Steel Lady" or "Aura of Joy" but something beyond just "the Spirit of Air", "the Spirit of Nature"...if there is such a thing as THE "Spirit of Ancestors [like a guardian thereof, as opposed to all of the individual ancestral spirits] then it deserves a name.</p><p> </p><p></p><p>What/where/how and why the Black Queen and her children exist in addition to/outside of the other gods is still something I don't quite get. Where/how does she fit into the mythology? </p><p></p><p>The Pale Warden's story seems set from what you say below but where the Black Queen came from/fits in just isn't making sense for me.</p><p></p><p>Also, for that matter, how/where/why did all of the existing deities come from and how were they split into these factions? I note the deceit goddess has the same last name [see below] as two of the Balance deities. Are they siblings? Parents and child? Soemthing else? </p><p></p><p>I am not a huge fan of deities having or requiring surnames. If they have an epithet or title, that makes tons of sense. "Apollo Sunspeaker" or "Odin All-Father" for example. So if those last names translate as something <em>specific</em> to those deities in one of your world's languages, then bully. But if they're just some means of differeniating them from all the<em> other </em>deities named " Kale" in your campaign universe..."No, no! Not Kale Jones from down the street. I mean that lovely Kale Smith from Nextville."...then drop them.</p><p></p><p>Think that's all for now/first glance. But, again, some good stuff going on in here.</p><p> Look forward to hearing how things progress.</p><p>--Steel Dragons</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="steeldragons, post: 6124594, member: 92511"] Greetings Kristivas! I LOVE working on pantheons and world-religions, mythologies and general campaign setting stuff. So this is all right up my alley. I hope what i have to offer might be helpful or, at least, give you some things to think about. There's a lot of good stuff here. There's a few things I have questions on. My biggest, before anything else is this...if this is YOUR campaign world, YOUR homebrew, YOUR creation...then why OH WHY would you want to be basing the entire pantheon's alignment system around the one that is NOT [I]your [/I]favorite?! That utterly baffles me. This is YOURS, man! Make it EXACTLY what you want. If the 4e alignment breakdown is not that for you, then why are you using it?! Ok. That out of the way, let's start with the stuff you, specifically asked about... "Too many"?...well, I guess not. You basically have set up, though without the "lines" drawn along alignment, only 3. You have the "Orderly" faction, the "Neutral/Balance" faction and the "Anything Goes/[I'll dare to characterize as the] Chaos" faction. Your "6 spirits" aren't involved, the "Black Queen" and "Pale Warden" seem to kinda be in their own little dance..so your really only have 3 "factions" so I guess that's not too many. I don't know that there's such a thing. lol. I mean what are Forgotten Realms or Greywhawk up to these days? My own campaign world of Orea rounds out at, I think, about 25...only about half of whom are "greater powers/major deities" with the rest as lesser gods of areas of less importance or more specific interest, and a smattering of demi-gods. So your spread looks just about right to me. However, why are the Six Spirits necessarily separate from the Rulers or the Unbound? Do/could/should they not be put in one or the other? Is there some mythological reason/significance that hasn't been presented for this separation? The Black Queen seems to exist in something of a quandry of contrariness. Is she necessary as an "outside [of the factions]" figure? Why would she NOT be considered, were one to look at her portfolio I'd assume "Unbound"?...But then, by the description of wanting to gain all powers as her own (which has NOTHING to do and indeed seems contradictory with her portfolio), when you have "Tyranny and Domination" thrown in with the "Rule of Order"...should she, then, not be under the Rule of Order? Or (as she appears so obviously to my eyes) is she SUPPOSED to be the [traditional/pre-D&D/mythologoical] Tiamat figure of the raging/roiling monster-dragon (right down to the traditional 5-headsed imagery a.k.a. her 5 demi-god children...each of whom, I'd assume to be assigned one of evil/chromatic dragonkind) who exists prior to, in spite of, and for the ultimate undoing of the "organized/usable/safe for mortal creatures" universe? Does she predate the Rulers and Unbound? The Spirits? Since it has been explicitly stated that the Pale Warden is a mortal-made-divine hero figure, it would seem he comes last/later to thwart the Black Queen...so where does she fall in the birth of the cosmos and/or the other gods? Her spheres of influence would suggest she did not/could not exist before the world was made and ultimately corrupted at some point of its creation (at which point things like decay and pestilence can come into existence and all the rest of her protfolio follows from there). I would say, if you wanted to lessen your number of deities, you could always disperse the spirit things, "air, earth, fire, water, nature and ancestors" among other existing deities. That's kinda what I'm asking/bringing up...is there? Are the factions, as they exist now, necessary? Is it necessary or to the betterment of your world that a cleric of one of the Six Spirits will NOT be involved in or concerned with the actions of the clerics of gods who are in the "Celestial Conflict"? Are "Nature" and "Ancestors" such integral parts of reality...as "elemental" (as it were) to creation, as Air, Water, Fire and Earth, to warrant their own Spirits? A "better way" in my opinion. hmmm...well, off the top of my head and what I've said thus far... 1. Place the Six Spirits (are they getting names, btw? and if not, why not?) under the Balance. 2. I would swap Shanir Valathoss and, at first glance (my initial instinct), the Steel Lady. Maintaining 5 each for Order and Unbound, but the placement of these two, in particular, irks me. So now your "teams" are 5 Rule of Order, 5 Unbound and 10 for Balance (making the maintenance of balance all that much more stable/easier on the acutal gods of balance because they have the support -however passive or active you want to portray it- of the 6 "spirits" under them. 3. The Black Queen has 5 demi-gods to throw at and confound to poor, valiant, against all odds, Pale Warden...does he need some subservient spirit creatures throw at them? (I mean, obviosuly, he has his court of ancient gold and silver dragons to help...I suppose that would work against demi-gods ;) Well, for one, take [FONT=verdana][SIZE=2]Shanir Valathoss out of Order and put her in Unbound...,[SIZE=2] "[/SIZE]Deceit[SIZE=2], Secrets[/SIZE], Greed, Trickery[SIZE=2] and[/SIZE] Charm" there is nothing in that portfolio that is to the benefit or support of "Order"[SIZE=2]...unless you are thinking that one must [SIZE=2]have Order to twist and damage, so that things like T[SIZE=2]rickery[SIZE=2], Secrets and[/SIZE] Dec[SIZE=2]eit can exist[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE] at all....but[SIZE=2] that's a bit stretchy for me[SIZE=2]. B[SIZE=2]ottom line, that goddess' presence among the Order faction[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE] rubbed me wrong immediately.[/SIZE][/FONT] And while I can see the Unbounded side of "Glory and Courage" when you add in "Law and Protection", that implies all kinds of structure that can only exist/further the Rule of Order...besides one of the other Order gods already has "Law" in their portfolio. The Steel Lady, to me obviously, belongs in the Order faction. 2) I don't see how/why the Black Queen and her portfolio of "pestilence, decay, necromancy, and undeath, darkness and slime" justifies her NOT being in the Unbound. That all sounds, instinctively, like stuff that does not wish to be or operate within bounds. If it is strictly this idea that she wants all the power for herself, again, tyranny and domination are in the Rule of Order...and nothing about "pestilence,decay,necromancy, undeath, slime or darkness" says (again, to me) "GIMME power"...unless you could say pestilence seeks to "spread"...but decay, necromancy, undeath, darkness and even pestilence...all of these things say "I want to "TAKE AWAY [light/life/health/etc]" not "ACCUMUALTE MORE [power]." Everything over which she holds sway is about detracting and lessening...see where I'm hitting a symbollic speed bump? Oh, and really not so much a "rubbing the wrong way" as a "tilt of the head with an expression of confusion"...how does "Tyrant, Domination and Law", in any conceivable way, include/incorporate "Mysticism"? What immediately rubbed me the RIGHT way was the nice handling/skewing/refluffing of Tiamat a.k.a. 5-head dragon a.k.a. the Black Queen with 5 demi-god children [each of them have a color of dragon associated with them?] and Bahamut a.k.a. Platinum Dragon a.k.a. Paladine a.k.a. "the Paladin" a.k.a. a "Pale" Warden. Very nice. I enjoyed that. I also very much like the idea of separate teams of deities that are NOT based on the "good/evil" acess but the "law/chaos" one instead (though I do urge you to use the alignment system that IS your favorite). Dunno if I'd toss anything...I just think some more thought and detailed reasons [mythologically relevant to the world] are needed for who's where and why. Also, I submit that the Six Spirits, if they are indeed meant to be [I]gods[/I] of these 6 "spiritual areas" i.e. the supreme embodiment of Air, Earth, Nature, etc..., then they should be named. Or at least given titles like "Steel Lady" or "Aura of Joy" but something beyond just "the Spirit of Air", "the Spirit of Nature"...if there is such a thing as THE "Spirit of Ancestors [like a guardian thereof, as opposed to all of the individual ancestral spirits] then it deserves a name. What/where/how and why the Black Queen and her children exist in addition to/outside of the other gods is still something I don't quite get. Where/how does she fit into the mythology? The Pale Warden's story seems set from what you say below but where the Black Queen came from/fits in just isn't making sense for me. Also, for that matter, how/where/why did all of the existing deities come from and how were they split into these factions? I note the deceit goddess has the same last name [see below] as two of the Balance deities. Are they siblings? Parents and child? Soemthing else? I am not a huge fan of deities having or requiring surnames. If they have an epithet or title, that makes tons of sense. "Apollo Sunspeaker" or "Odin All-Father" for example. So if those last names translate as something [I]specific[/I] to those deities in one of your world's languages, then bully. But if they're just some means of differeniating them from all the[I] other [/I]deities named " Kale" in your campaign universe..."No, no! Not Kale Jones from down the street. I mean that lovely Kale Smith from Nextville."...then drop them. Think that's all for now/first glance. But, again, some good stuff going on in here. Look forward to hearing how things progress. --Steel Dragons [/QUOTE]
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