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Would love some input on my Homebrew Pantheon.
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<blockquote data-quote="Tovec" data-source="post: 6126050" data-attributes="member: 95493"><p>No problem at all. And believe me I understand the meds thing, I've been sick off and on for about six months but you happened to catch me when I honestly have no other major responsibilities and so I shall continue but if I drop off in the future that is probably why (things caught up with me).</p><p></p><p></p><p>Okay, then there are few things that go with that. If the primary reason for the ancestor/elemental group is due to these 'uncivilized people' then that could mean a number of things. My best suggestion is to make those people worship the 'spirits' as a pantheon on their own, while not acknowledging the other gods. Beyond this, why have them call upon water or fire and instead have them call upon the river X or the fire-mountain Y? Fits a little better with spiritualism in real world examples. I would have them call upon the fire-mountain but then still have fire as in renewal and healing be rolled into another god. So, they refuse to acknowledge those gods but the gods (may or may not) get that power anyway. This is a perfect example, though, of what [MENTION=6685730]DMMike[/MENTION] (I believe) was saying. You need the spirit group because of a human group, not because they really need to be separate.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Yeah, I got that from the replies, that's fine then. I'm a little surprised you do considering the amount you seem to rely on a Law-Chaos axis with this cosmology but whatever. Maybe that is something that is only meant to be behind the curtain, either way it is the last I'll mention it.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Oh trust me I know it, I'm on my 6th incarnation of my gods. There are some who have dropped in an out but at this point I have approximately 2 that were there in the beginning and even they have changed a lot since the early incarnations.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Okay, I like this, but I think it would work best if they were divvied up. What if the ones you have now are the major ones, but that this faction was mostly smaller (less powerful) gods who represent the different passions. That is more or less how the Greek-Romans did it. There are three (as far as I recall) gods for love in that pantheon. What if it were more like that? Then have the ones you have now be the leaders, or rulers or kings/queens of the passionate gods?</p><p></p><p></p><p>This is where I would merge with many of the balance gods. If you make the "rule of order" to be more cosmic things, things that are NOT passionate, not necessarily cold but more status quo - the lawful side of cosmos. It works well if chaos/passion (in this system I would not call the other side the unbound unless you have a good reason) is about creation and destruction, but constant change and renewal. Then law becomes about stability, edging toward sterility. They are about cataloging or maintaining the order of reality in a world of change. The stable rock in an swirling ocean. Something like that.</p><p></p><p></p><p>The balance in the above case is less 'maintaining' balance and more 'none of the above'. The black queen and pale warden go here. Minor note, why 'warden'? These would be gods were are less aspects or jobs of cosmos/nature and certainly not the ever changing whims of chaos/passion. They would be the ones who may side with the other groups but never join them. They may be powerful in their own right, for various reasons. Minor gods who are unaligned would then go here. Like I said, balance in this is more like the tide of the ocean, sliding toward one side or the other as their interests are served, as opposed to siding with one side or another in order to make the scales not topple.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I understand that this is true, but it only works when you give the explanation. Let me put it another way. If we were looking to real pantheons (in real world) you would never have all the norse gods, then have loki sitting all alone in a completely different pantheon. They may not like what he does, but he is still part of the pantheon. It might be the part they don't talk to as much but he is still there. He probably still has a home in the norse-heaven somewhere. Even the devil in the abrahamic pantheon is part, he is contrary to all that is good (god and angels) but he is just the other side of the same coin.</p><p></p><p>Also, you never explained who her counterpart is, how that works, or why getting his power allows her to curse everyone else.</p><p>Same goes for the pale warden. Why do I want to keep calling him the pale knight. I like SD's take on tiamat/bahamut. I totally didn't see that.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I've been working on my own gods, and I hugely love reading myth in general, so I was able to guess at this distinction. My point was that if you used 'killing' in place of 'murder', a change that most people would not be above making and not realizing the distinction, then they become very similar. You need to explain HOW, you need more of a description. Personal blurbs I think are kind of the flaw here. You are describing personalities and assigning alignment and affiliation based on those personalities. That can work, but only if you really up-play those personalities to the point that the personalities ARE them. Hypnos needs to be constantly asleep, not just cause people to be sleepy. That kind of thing.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Well no, I think you misunderstood. This kind of echos DMMike; the norse were warriors and so they had norse warrior-gods. The egyptians were all about money in the afterlife and so their gods were all about money and how the afterlife worked. That isn't to say that people made the gods. But you are a person and you are, you need to think how people and the gods will play off eachother. I'm not clear, outside of the 'uncivilized people' from earlier, how the gods are meant to be used EXCEPT as a power-source. How much interaction is there going to be. If the gods live on another plane then how often do people see them - you mention it depends on their zones of influence. Do the gods have a stake in how many people follow them - are people a source of food?</p><p></p><p></p><p>Right, but here again you aren't really putting as much thought into it as I think you need to. In 95% of all pantheons you need to consider the cosmology that goes with it. You can have one or two basic planes (earth, earth+god's home) for all it matters but you need to decide how they work. In your case you describe four main sub-pantheons, do they live together? How would they live apart? Can all the gods kill people and take their souls? If the gods kill someone does the god of death show up and lead their soul to the afterlife? Is there an afterlife? How does the afterlife work? If the god of death is fighting someone else, does he stop the fight to go reap someone? Do they hang around until he shows up? Does he do it personally or have helpers? Do some people find their way to the beyond without him? If he is held up do they just wait, or become ghosts/other baddies? How does necromancy work if the god of death is shepherding souls to the afterlife? This is just one question with one god, granted a biggy but if you have a god of fire/renewal/birth (pelor <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" />) then can he stop people from using a fireball without the right appeasement? How involved are the gods, I don't care if they appear as avatars or not, that comes last.</p><p></p><p></p><p>So there is a god of death, who takes people to the god of judgement. Okay, seems like an extra step. Also seems like BOTH of these guys should be part of rule of order to me. How does justice judge them, what are the requirements, what happens if people 'fail'? These details will matter more than how the gods are organized, as far as players go, most of the time. That of course assumes the players ever see that aspect. Can living people petition the god of death to release their friend? Can they pay the god of judgement for a better life for that friend?</p><p></p><p></p><p>Okay, at first it seemed like you possibly wanted different pantheons to work in different areas, now it seems like you want them just to have more influence in different areas so I'm still not positive on why you need different factions really.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Again, relating this back to what I was saying at the beginning. If you have a god in charge of ancestors, or whatever that closest relation would be, maybe part of your god of death or something. Anyway, the person worships their own personal ancestors and that is fine. That seems like a division of magic, but the ancestors 'god' would be something else entirely.</p><p></p><p></p><p>That is just it. I don't see why the spirits are doing anything, or why they exist. If you have a spirit of the X river be the reason you have water-powers that is cool, but it seems like an appeal to that river and not to 'water' itself.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Honestly, even though I would put one god in stewardship of an element I wouldn't have just one god have access to that element. It is different to say that one god is the god of fire, and that everyone can use fireballs, and to say that one god is the god of fire and that NO ONE can use fireballs. You have a god of the sun? Make him the god of fire, that is his primary element. I would suggest other gods can still use fire/healing though. And the shamanistic groups still go to the fire-mountain for power, or seek to appease the great 'vulcan' of the mountain before they can use the power. But push comes to shove the sun god is also the god who decides if the volcano blows.</p><p></p><p></p><p>She had 10 necrolords and all of her demigod children are born of necrolords. Must suck to be the half that didn't give her a baby. Seems odd that she is the only one who figured out how to do this, considering how many gods there are and how many god-children you seem to have.</p><p></p><p>Also, it does NOT answer in what ways they are demigods. Are they just really weak gods or what?</p><p></p><p>If you want her children to have different aspects that is fine. That goes towards the 'born of necrolords' backstory I guess. Just seemed like an odd range for portfolios. How often are the demigods revered without their mother?</p><p></p><p></p><p>Right, but none of these things say 'balance' to me. Opportunistic, sure. But not balance. The lady of coin could probably still belong to this group, depending on how she acts and what she reflects, in my new suggested design. The lord of power would be a order god though. You say that yourself, he only ceases his studies when he needs to - otherwise he is cataloging and researching new spells - seems to fit with my above example.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Right, but these qualities don't reflect the gods you describe, except probably lord of power. They describe pragmatism and order. Cosmic balancing things. When you want the world to keep spinning AS IT IS, that is not-chaotic and in this paradigm that means lawful/order.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tovec, post: 6126050, member: 95493"] No problem at all. And believe me I understand the meds thing, I've been sick off and on for about six months but you happened to catch me when I honestly have no other major responsibilities and so I shall continue but if I drop off in the future that is probably why (things caught up with me). Okay, then there are few things that go with that. If the primary reason for the ancestor/elemental group is due to these 'uncivilized people' then that could mean a number of things. My best suggestion is to make those people worship the 'spirits' as a pantheon on their own, while not acknowledging the other gods. Beyond this, why have them call upon water or fire and instead have them call upon the river X or the fire-mountain Y? Fits a little better with spiritualism in real world examples. I would have them call upon the fire-mountain but then still have fire as in renewal and healing be rolled into another god. So, they refuse to acknowledge those gods but the gods (may or may not) get that power anyway. This is a perfect example, though, of what [MENTION=6685730]DMMike[/MENTION] (I believe) was saying. You need the spirit group because of a human group, not because they really need to be separate. Yeah, I got that from the replies, that's fine then. I'm a little surprised you do considering the amount you seem to rely on a Law-Chaos axis with this cosmology but whatever. Maybe that is something that is only meant to be behind the curtain, either way it is the last I'll mention it. Oh trust me I know it, I'm on my 6th incarnation of my gods. There are some who have dropped in an out but at this point I have approximately 2 that were there in the beginning and even they have changed a lot since the early incarnations. Okay, I like this, but I think it would work best if they were divvied up. What if the ones you have now are the major ones, but that this faction was mostly smaller (less powerful) gods who represent the different passions. That is more or less how the Greek-Romans did it. There are three (as far as I recall) gods for love in that pantheon. What if it were more like that? Then have the ones you have now be the leaders, or rulers or kings/queens of the passionate gods? This is where I would merge with many of the balance gods. If you make the "rule of order" to be more cosmic things, things that are NOT passionate, not necessarily cold but more status quo - the lawful side of cosmos. It works well if chaos/passion (in this system I would not call the other side the unbound unless you have a good reason) is about creation and destruction, but constant change and renewal. Then law becomes about stability, edging toward sterility. They are about cataloging or maintaining the order of reality in a world of change. The stable rock in an swirling ocean. Something like that. The balance in the above case is less 'maintaining' balance and more 'none of the above'. The black queen and pale warden go here. Minor note, why 'warden'? These would be gods were are less aspects or jobs of cosmos/nature and certainly not the ever changing whims of chaos/passion. They would be the ones who may side with the other groups but never join them. They may be powerful in their own right, for various reasons. Minor gods who are unaligned would then go here. Like I said, balance in this is more like the tide of the ocean, sliding toward one side or the other as their interests are served, as opposed to siding with one side or another in order to make the scales not topple. I understand that this is true, but it only works when you give the explanation. Let me put it another way. If we were looking to real pantheons (in real world) you would never have all the norse gods, then have loki sitting all alone in a completely different pantheon. They may not like what he does, but he is still part of the pantheon. It might be the part they don't talk to as much but he is still there. He probably still has a home in the norse-heaven somewhere. Even the devil in the abrahamic pantheon is part, he is contrary to all that is good (god and angels) but he is just the other side of the same coin. Also, you never explained who her counterpart is, how that works, or why getting his power allows her to curse everyone else. Same goes for the pale warden. Why do I want to keep calling him the pale knight. I like SD's take on tiamat/bahamut. I totally didn't see that. I've been working on my own gods, and I hugely love reading myth in general, so I was able to guess at this distinction. My point was that if you used 'killing' in place of 'murder', a change that most people would not be above making and not realizing the distinction, then they become very similar. You need to explain HOW, you need more of a description. Personal blurbs I think are kind of the flaw here. You are describing personalities and assigning alignment and affiliation based on those personalities. That can work, but only if you really up-play those personalities to the point that the personalities ARE them. Hypnos needs to be constantly asleep, not just cause people to be sleepy. That kind of thing. Well no, I think you misunderstood. This kind of echos DMMike; the norse were warriors and so they had norse warrior-gods. The egyptians were all about money in the afterlife and so their gods were all about money and how the afterlife worked. That isn't to say that people made the gods. But you are a person and you are, you need to think how people and the gods will play off eachother. I'm not clear, outside of the 'uncivilized people' from earlier, how the gods are meant to be used EXCEPT as a power-source. How much interaction is there going to be. If the gods live on another plane then how often do people see them - you mention it depends on their zones of influence. Do the gods have a stake in how many people follow them - are people a source of food? Right, but here again you aren't really putting as much thought into it as I think you need to. In 95% of all pantheons you need to consider the cosmology that goes with it. You can have one or two basic planes (earth, earth+god's home) for all it matters but you need to decide how they work. In your case you describe four main sub-pantheons, do they live together? How would they live apart? Can all the gods kill people and take their souls? If the gods kill someone does the god of death show up and lead their soul to the afterlife? Is there an afterlife? How does the afterlife work? If the god of death is fighting someone else, does he stop the fight to go reap someone? Do they hang around until he shows up? Does he do it personally or have helpers? Do some people find their way to the beyond without him? If he is held up do they just wait, or become ghosts/other baddies? How does necromancy work if the god of death is shepherding souls to the afterlife? This is just one question with one god, granted a biggy but if you have a god of fire/renewal/birth (pelor :P) then can he stop people from using a fireball without the right appeasement? How involved are the gods, I don't care if they appear as avatars or not, that comes last. So there is a god of death, who takes people to the god of judgement. Okay, seems like an extra step. Also seems like BOTH of these guys should be part of rule of order to me. How does justice judge them, what are the requirements, what happens if people 'fail'? These details will matter more than how the gods are organized, as far as players go, most of the time. That of course assumes the players ever see that aspect. Can living people petition the god of death to release their friend? Can they pay the god of judgement for a better life for that friend? Okay, at first it seemed like you possibly wanted different pantheons to work in different areas, now it seems like you want them just to have more influence in different areas so I'm still not positive on why you need different factions really. Again, relating this back to what I was saying at the beginning. If you have a god in charge of ancestors, or whatever that closest relation would be, maybe part of your god of death or something. Anyway, the person worships their own personal ancestors and that is fine. That seems like a division of magic, but the ancestors 'god' would be something else entirely. That is just it. I don't see why the spirits are doing anything, or why they exist. If you have a spirit of the X river be the reason you have water-powers that is cool, but it seems like an appeal to that river and not to 'water' itself. Honestly, even though I would put one god in stewardship of an element I wouldn't have just one god have access to that element. It is different to say that one god is the god of fire, and that everyone can use fireballs, and to say that one god is the god of fire and that NO ONE can use fireballs. You have a god of the sun? Make him the god of fire, that is his primary element. I would suggest other gods can still use fire/healing though. And the shamanistic groups still go to the fire-mountain for power, or seek to appease the great 'vulcan' of the mountain before they can use the power. But push comes to shove the sun god is also the god who decides if the volcano blows. She had 10 necrolords and all of her demigod children are born of necrolords. Must suck to be the half that didn't give her a baby. Seems odd that she is the only one who figured out how to do this, considering how many gods there are and how many god-children you seem to have. Also, it does NOT answer in what ways they are demigods. Are they just really weak gods or what? If you want her children to have different aspects that is fine. That goes towards the 'born of necrolords' backstory I guess. Just seemed like an odd range for portfolios. How often are the demigods revered without their mother? Right, but none of these things say 'balance' to me. Opportunistic, sure. But not balance. The lady of coin could probably still belong to this group, depending on how she acts and what she reflects, in my new suggested design. The lord of power would be a order god though. You say that yourself, he only ceases his studies when he needs to - otherwise he is cataloging and researching new spells - seems to fit with my above example. Right, but these qualities don't reflect the gods you describe, except probably lord of power. They describe pragmatism and order. Cosmic balancing things. When you want the world to keep spinning AS IT IS, that is not-chaotic and in this paradigm that means lawful/order. [/QUOTE]
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