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Would this fix Champion?
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<blockquote data-quote="Sword of Spirit" data-source="post: 6994894" data-attributes="member: 6677017"><p>I’ve had concerns with a few specific subclasses that seemed underpowered compared to other subclasses, and the Champion vs. Battle Master was one of them.</p><p></p><p>After extensive analysis, I determined that my concerns regarding the Champion were unnecessary, and that overall it could be considered <strong><em>insignificantly inferior</em></strong> in effectiveness to the Battle Master.</p><p></p><p>This is in contrast to the other subclasses I examined, which I concluded really were unacceptably weak (the Berserker insultingly so, because it also committed the error of penalizing the playstyle that the class/subclass theme implied).</p><p></p><p>(I should point out that I do not consider simplicity of play vs. another subclass to be a valid defense for mechanical weakness. Those are two separate considerations which should have no bearing on each other.)</p><p></p><p>The basic results of my examination were that with 2 short rests and 9 rounds of combat in a day the Battle Master comes out slightly ahead on DPR at most levels.</p><p></p><p>However, if you include GWM, and/or increase the rounds of combat between short rests (which I slanted in favor of the Battle Master as you can see), the Champion generally pulls equal or ahead. GWM is especially favorable to the Champion at high levels.</p><p></p><p>Some points of interest:</p><p>1) The benefits to alternate/improvised actions from Remarkable Athlete are rarely going to come into play in combat. This is because Champion probably already has Athletics proficiency, which will cover almost everything he might do. If he has Acrobatics too, that will cover all the rest of your typical Strength/Dexterity actions.</p><p>2) Constitution checks (as opposed to saves) are rare and highly dependent on the DM, but in the right campaign he can get some benefit out of it, as well as out of the increase to jumping distance.</p><p>3) The bonus to Strength checks to which no proficiencies apply (like pure acts of pushing, lifting, bending) can be useful, as can the bonus to the Dexterity skills the fighter may not have, like Stealth.</p><p></p><p>Those features of Remarkable Athlete are exploration pillar abilities, comparable to the Battle Master’s non-combat abilities.</p><p></p><p>4) The Champion gains a modest ‘hidden’ damage increase from Remarkable Athlete’s initiative bonus. This is a cool little thing that is easy to miss.</p><p>5) The Champion will probably have a +1 AC at higher levels due to his additional fighting style, which is a pretty big thing in 5e.</p><p>6) It goes without saying that his high level regeneration is amazing. Starting every battle with a minimum of half your hit points and regenerating means you will get taken out of the fight less often and use less healing resources from teammates. It also further supports the playstyle of long days of monster chopping.</p><p></p><p>Those need to be taken into account when considering overall combat effectiveness.</p><p></p><p>7) The Battle Master’s damage assumes he uses all of his superiority dice between each short rest. This means he isn’t necessarily using them to best effectiveness (as far as riders are concerned). If your Battle Master prefers to hold on to some of his dice for when he really needs them, he will most likely start most short rests without having spent at least one of them. Now, it might just be my playing style, but that’s something that will actually come up for me and my fellow players, reducing the real damage output of the Battle Master.</p><p>8) The Battle Master’s high level ability to regain a superiority die at the start of each combat increases his damage significantly, and mitigates the effects of point 7, making it hard for the Champion to keep up in pure damage output.</p><p></p><p>This means that the Battle Master’s raw numbers can (IMO) be more misleading than the Champion’s raw numbers (to both the Battle Master’s detriment and benefit).</p><p></p><p>9) The Champion benefits more from GWM. If this is in play, it can significantly shift things in its favor.</p><p>10) The Champion benefits more from advantage. If the party setup grants it easy and regular advantage, this can be a huge benefit.</p><p>11) The Battle Master’s maneuvers give it a lot of flexibility, some of which can be great support for the rest of the party.</p><p></p><p>This means that the Champion benefits more from feats, while both Champion and Battle Master can have their effective contribution significantly enhanced based on party composition and playstyle. They’d probably make great buddies in the same party.</p><p></p><p>12) It goes without saying that the longer you go between short rests, the more and more effective the Champion becomes. This can be a strong support for AD&D playstyles, which tended to include more encounters in a day.</p><p>13) The Battle Master, of course, shines if you have lots of short rests. This supports a 4e style fairly well.</p><p><em></em></p><p><em>Both subclasses mechanically favor/reward the playstyle that they thematically imply.</em></p><p></p><p>Primarily because the Battle Master’s maneuvers give it a lot of flexibility, because of the number of rounds of combat that tend to actually happen between short rests for most groups, and because feats cannot be assumed, I give the Battle Master a slight advantage overall.</p><p></p><p>However, this slight imbalance is, IMO, well within the range of the unavoidable imbalances that occur when classes use different mechanics. This is in contrast to a couple other subclasses that bother me so much I’d need house rules to play them.</p><p></p><p>So as someone who is both imbalance sensitive, and weighs thematic playstyle support highly, I’m excited about playing both Champion and Battle Master, and consider any imbalance that may situationally appear between them to be well within the acceptable range.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Sword of Spirit, post: 6994894, member: 6677017"] I’ve had concerns with a few specific subclasses that seemed underpowered compared to other subclasses, and the Champion vs. Battle Master was one of them. After extensive analysis, I determined that my concerns regarding the Champion were unnecessary, and that overall it could be considered [B][I]insignificantly inferior[/I][/B] in effectiveness to the Battle Master. This is in contrast to the other subclasses I examined, which I concluded really were unacceptably weak (the Berserker insultingly so, because it also committed the error of penalizing the playstyle that the class/subclass theme implied). (I should point out that I do not consider simplicity of play vs. another subclass to be a valid defense for mechanical weakness. Those are two separate considerations which should have no bearing on each other.) The basic results of my examination were that with 2 short rests and 9 rounds of combat in a day the Battle Master comes out slightly ahead on DPR at most levels. However, if you include GWM, and/or increase the rounds of combat between short rests (which I slanted in favor of the Battle Master as you can see), the Champion generally pulls equal or ahead. GWM is especially favorable to the Champion at high levels. Some points of interest: 1) The benefits to alternate/improvised actions from Remarkable Athlete are rarely going to come into play in combat. This is because Champion probably already has Athletics proficiency, which will cover almost everything he might do. If he has Acrobatics too, that will cover all the rest of your typical Strength/Dexterity actions. 2) Constitution checks (as opposed to saves) are rare and highly dependent on the DM, but in the right campaign he can get some benefit out of it, as well as out of the increase to jumping distance. 3) The bonus to Strength checks to which no proficiencies apply (like pure acts of pushing, lifting, bending) can be useful, as can the bonus to the Dexterity skills the fighter may not have, like Stealth. Those features of Remarkable Athlete are exploration pillar abilities, comparable to the Battle Master’s non-combat abilities. 4) The Champion gains a modest ‘hidden’ damage increase from Remarkable Athlete’s initiative bonus. This is a cool little thing that is easy to miss. 5) The Champion will probably have a +1 AC at higher levels due to his additional fighting style, which is a pretty big thing in 5e. 6) It goes without saying that his high level regeneration is amazing. Starting every battle with a minimum of half your hit points and regenerating means you will get taken out of the fight less often and use less healing resources from teammates. It also further supports the playstyle of long days of monster chopping. Those need to be taken into account when considering overall combat effectiveness. 7) The Battle Master’s damage assumes he uses all of his superiority dice between each short rest. This means he isn’t necessarily using them to best effectiveness (as far as riders are concerned). If your Battle Master prefers to hold on to some of his dice for when he really needs them, he will most likely start most short rests without having spent at least one of them. Now, it might just be my playing style, but that’s something that will actually come up for me and my fellow players, reducing the real damage output of the Battle Master. 8) The Battle Master’s high level ability to regain a superiority die at the start of each combat increases his damage significantly, and mitigates the effects of point 7, making it hard for the Champion to keep up in pure damage output. This means that the Battle Master’s raw numbers can (IMO) be more misleading than the Champion’s raw numbers (to both the Battle Master’s detriment and benefit). 9) The Champion benefits more from GWM. If this is in play, it can significantly shift things in its favor. 10) The Champion benefits more from advantage. If the party setup grants it easy and regular advantage, this can be a huge benefit. 11) The Battle Master’s maneuvers give it a lot of flexibility, some of which can be great support for the rest of the party. This means that the Champion benefits more from feats, while both Champion and Battle Master can have their effective contribution significantly enhanced based on party composition and playstyle. They’d probably make great buddies in the same party. 12) It goes without saying that the longer you go between short rests, the more and more effective the Champion becomes. This can be a strong support for AD&D playstyles, which tended to include more encounters in a day. 13) The Battle Master, of course, shines if you have lots of short rests. This supports a 4e style fairly well. [I] Both subclasses mechanically favor/reward the playstyle that they thematically imply.[/I] Primarily because the Battle Master’s maneuvers give it a lot of flexibility, because of the number of rounds of combat that tend to actually happen between short rests for most groups, and because feats cannot be assumed, I give the Battle Master a slight advantage overall. However, this slight imbalance is, IMO, well within the range of the unavoidable imbalances that occur when classes use different mechanics. This is in contrast to a couple other subclasses that bother me so much I’d need house rules to play them. So as someone who is both imbalance sensitive, and weighs thematic playstyle support highly, I’m excited about playing both Champion and Battle Master, and consider any imbalance that may situationally appear between them to be well within the acceptable range. [/QUOTE]
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