Dragonlance Would you allow Kender outside of Dragonlance?

[AverageCitizen]

Great... Now take a smarter then average (aka 13+) member of that society and have them live in America for 2 years... See if they can start to grasp the concept... Or if the society of America would except him or her without said learning...


18 int kender wizard living in a city for years and int 10 kender just in his first mixed group are by the rules equal unable to learn the concept... And society as a whole not only excepts this but boo hi is people who are not understanding

Like I said before, they learn it, they just don't understand why it is such a big deal. They know how we feel, but sometimes they ignore us because they think we are making a big deal out of nothing. They have different values.

 

[Bacon Bits]

Not only that, Kender are immune to fear.

So are Paladins. Immunity to fear doesn't mean unwise, foolhardy, or reckless. Guess how people play Kender? An entire race permanently incapable of assessing danger or risk and incapable of using wisdom or experience to judge a likely outcome? And they get to get away with it because, what, they're small? Sorry, no.

 

[MechaPilot]

I am not going to name the cultures, but I have had experience with several undeveloped* cultures where they have a hard time grasping the idea of personal property. I think it is because they view ownership in terms of need and want. If an individual wants or needs something he possesses, he would protect it.

That's not just undeveloped cultures.

Look at certain laws in the US and you can see that there is at least a minimal onus on owners of things to protect them. Two good examples of this are trademarks and real estate. Companies with trademarks are required to protect them or else they may end up having been deemed to abandon them. Additionally, if you don't at least inspect real property that you own on a periodic basis, someone can legally attain the rights to that property if they openly live on it under the auspice of the owner's ignorance.

 

[SirAntoine]

So are Paladins. Immunity to fear doesn't mean unwise, foolhardy, or reckless. Guess how people play Kender? An entire race permanently incapable of assessing danger or risk and incapable of using wisdom or experience to judge a likely outcome? And they get to get away with it because, what, they're small? Sorry, no.

Well, a paladin who is immune to fear is an individual with a great deal of training and discipline, and with the help of the gods. The Kender are naturally immune to fear, so it could indeed lend itself to role playing differently. The Kender are innocent as they steal, remember. They not only do not fear reprimand, but they can't understand it. They prefer to do it their own way, and they can defend their actions on moral grounds.

 

[Coredump]

I'd allow Kender. I wouldn't allow disruptive play. The player would have to figure out how to do one without the other.

If a *player* decides to play a Kender in a disruptive manner.... that is the fault of the *player*, not the Kender PC.

I played a Kender in a campaign for a number of years.... definitely played as a Kender, yet everyone had fun and it was a productive and useful member of the party.

If (as some have proposed) people are using Kender as an excuse to blame "Roleplaying" for being a jerk... that is their fault.

 

[HardcoreDandDGirl]

I would not allow a kender in any of my games, nor play with them... and I don't care what society you come from if someone in the real world acted like a kender they would end up in a very bad place...

To put this in perspective would someone give an example of playing a kender more or less by the books and it being fun in detail?
[MENTION=6939]Coredump[/MENTION] and [MENTION=1]Morrus[/MENTION], please tell us your tales... because all we ever get are horror stories in these threads, maybe a good example will spark a new discussion...

 

[Sunseeker]

Not only that, Kender are immune to fear.

Technically, they're not just immune to Fear, they don't feel fear. So an effect that causes fear is no different from a potential judgement call that would elicit fear as a factor into whether or not to make that choice. Jump off a cliff? Fear of death doesn't factor in at all. Play with a woodchipper? No fear, Kender are here!

Biologically, a race that couldn't experience fear couldn't survive. It is such a simple biological imperative, a lack of fear combined with the happy-go-lucky attitude would get the species killed real fast.

 

[SirAntoine]

If a *player* decides to play a Kender in a disruptive manner.... that is the fault of the *player*, not the Kender PC.

I played a Kender in a campaign for a number of years.... definitely played as a Kender, yet everyone had fun and it was a productive and useful member of the party.

If (as some have proposed) people are using Kender as an excuse to blame "Roleplaying" for being a jerk... that is their fault.

That is a pretty fair statement. Many players have played thieves, of any race, in a disruptive manner and explained it with they were role-playing or in-character. The DM can rein it in, and in some groups it will come to blows. I don't think there is anything inherently disruptive or unacceptable about the Kender.

 

[Coredump]

[MENTION=6939]Coredump[/MENTION] and [MENTION=1]Morrus[/MENTION], please tell us your tales... because all we ever get are horror stories in these threads, maybe a good example will spark a new discussion...

Sure, it was many years ago, so most of the details have slipped my mind... but as I recall...

Since personal property wasn't an issue, he might grab certain things.... but it wasn't to own them. So at worst, he might grab something that caught his eye, but if you asked for it, he just gave it back. As a *player* it was just important to make sure it was not something important.

Plus, it doesn't make him an uncontrolled klepto.... he wouldn't just steal things because he could. In fact 'stealing' isn't even an issue, since the item doesn't belong to anyone. There is no need for me to take something just to have it.

Since Kender had such an open society,and no personal belongings..... there is no need to steal things, since you just went and got the item when you needed it. Further, the only reason a kender would lock something up... was as a game, or test, to challenge your ability to 'beat' the lock and take them. So the other PCs learned that items left available, were pretty safe.... just don't lock them up.
And the PCs got to join in on the fun when we were in town and merchants would have items in a locked case.

So sure there were times when you wanted to go buy that cool magic sword, only to discover your pouch of diamonds was not an empty pouch.... but a simple "Hey (can't remember his name anymore) do you have any diamonds I could have?" or even "Hey (Name), I am heading to get a new sword, but I'm a bit short, so you have any money I could have?" Either way, you would end up with your diamonds back. (or maybe some rubies instead)
Plus, I was *really* easy to talk into helping out.... "Hey (name), thats a cool sword.... no way you could get past those locks and traps to get it..."

It makes no sense for a Kender to take things and *keep* them....so its really only a problem if the *player* is dumb enough to take things like your weapons right before a battle.... or grabbing your spell components...etc. Besides, why would a Kender rogue *want* some big magical sword, or a bad of bat guano.. I see a lot of Kender-hate, and it really confuses me, it seems like it would be hard to play one as a bane to the other players.



I played in a party once with a thief that used to always palm the gems, or sneak ahead and empty chests.... whatever she could get away with and hide from the party. And that *could* have been an issue, but..... the PC always "somehow" had extra gold and gems to pay for hotels, or gear, or as a gift for us to buy magic items.... sometimes she even 'somehow' had magic items that she gave us.

IOW, the *player* found a way to play a 'take it all' style thief, while still working well within a party structure.... it really isn't that hard.

 

[Bacon Bits]

Well, a paladin who is immune to fear is an individual with a great deal of training and discipline, and with the help of the gods. The Kender are naturally immune to fear, so it could indeed lend itself to role playing differently. The Kender are innocent as they steal, remember. They not only do not fear reprimand, but they can't understand it. They prefer to do it their own way, and they can defend their actions on moral grounds.

Yet halflings are presented as merely innately brave and strong of heart.

On the one hand, out of game, Kender-style fear immunity is a game mechanic which encourages disruptive player behavior.

On the other hand, in game, Kender-style fear immunity would prevent Kender from adequately assessing risk, meaning they would have long since eliminated themselves from the gene pool in a spectacular series of facepalm-worthy "hold my beer" moments. The game would have you believe that they get away with it because they're small. The game would have you believe that an entire race of thieves is tolerated because they "look like children" and because everyone somehow knows they're comic relief.

It's a poor game mechanic. It's poor game world lore. I can tolerate one or the other, but not both.