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Would you be interested in a compromise to the miniatures-centric combat of D&D?

Azlan

First Post
Would you be interested in a combat system for D&D that is a good compromise between the miniatures-based tactical-ness of D&D 3.5, and something that is totally abstract? That is, a compromise that incorporates most (if not all) of the detail and variety of D&D 3.5 combat, but does not require the use of miniatures (or cardboard counters in lieu of miniatures), as well as for a scaled map of the encounter area to be drawn out, each time. Of course, this compromise would have to streamline (i.e. simplify, in the process of making more abstract) many of the rules for movement, flanking, reach, ranged attacks, attacks of opportunity, etc.

When I first started playing D&D, decades ago, my group at that time had neither the money nor the means to use miniatures, a re-usable "battle" mat, and eraseable markers. So, pretty much all the placement of the player characters and their opponents, in combat and on the encounter field, was kept track of within our heads. Occasionally, I (as the DM) would say, "Hmm, this is getting confusing. Here's what it looks like... ", and then I would illustrate the combat encounter, from an overhead view: first, drawing the area where it was taking place, on graph paper, and then marking where each and every player character and their opponents were. However, more times than not, one or more players would say, "That's not at all the way I was picturing it."

Years later, when D&D 3.0/3.5 came along, as the combat system became more miniatures-centric, I began to realize how useful miniatures, a re-usable battle mat, and eraseable markers could be. (We still lacked the money for real miniatures, so instead we used cardboard counters, which served just as well.) Our interest in D&D was re-newed as we became engrossed in the implementation of the new edition's rules for movement, flanking, reach, ranged attacks, attacks of opportunity, etc.

However, after having done this for a number of years, my players and myself are finding it tedious and time-consuming to keep using such a miniatures-centric combat system. Mind you, we still want to continue playing D&D, but we are growing tired of our roleplaying game getting bogged down into such a tactical, miniatures wargame, like we were playing Warhammer 40K or something.

So, I'm wonding if there might be a good compromise? Problem is, I'm seeing that most other comparable RPG systems – GURPS, Hero, etc. – have gone the way of D&D 3.5. (Or is that the other way around?) Whatever, we don't want to stop playing D&D 3.5. (We really like the character races, classes, skills, feats, magic, world settings, etc., of D&D.) We just want a more abstract "encounter field" and "combatant placement/position tracking" system that retains all (or at least, most) of the combat detail and variety that D&D 3.5 affords us.
 
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The Lost Muse

First Post
I think drawing a quick initial sketch on a whiteboard and then narrating the rest ought to work in all but the most complex of situations.
 

Azlan

First Post
Timmundo said:
I think drawing a quick initial sketch on a whiteboard and then narrating the rest ought to work in all but the most complex of situations.
But that's pretty much the "totally abstract" system that we were using, many years ago. Even when the DM does a quick, initial sketch on a whiteboard, how does he and the players know, as the combat encounter progresses, when to use D&D 3.5's situational rules for flanking, ranged atttacks, attacks of opportunity, etc.? Must the DM use arbitrary decisions?

Rogue player: Am I flanking my opponent? Can I use my sneak attack?

Ranger player: Can I use my Point Blank Shot, to get +1 attack and +1 damage with my bow?

DM: No, neither of you are in position to use those.

Rogue and ranger players: Why not?

DM: Because I say so, that's why.
 

hexgrid

Explorer
It should go more like this:

Rogue player: I'm moving into a flanking position so I can use sneak attack.

Ranger player: I'm moving in close enough to use point blank shot.

DM: OK!

I'm not sure a new ruleset is needed.
 


Grymar

Explorer
When our group formed we were doing abstract combat. What I noticed quickly was that things like mobility, combat reflexes, and other tactical feats were not used at all. Even speed wasn't a big deal, the halfling just moved to attack.

Then we used minis in combat once and were blown away by the tactics. It actually got us much more interested and involved in combat...rather than just moving to attack we were planning flanking moves, trying to hustle around the main battle line to attack the spell casters, and all sorts of other things.

I know each group is different, but adding minis really helped our group.
 

Azlan

First Post
hexgrid said:
It should go more like this:

Rogue player: I'm moving into a flanking position so I can use sneak attack.

Ranger player: I'm moving in close enough to use point blank shot.

DM: OK!

I'm not sure a new ruleset is needed.
Meh. What a pushover DM! :p
 

Azlan

First Post
Grymar said:
When our group formed we were doing abstract combat. What I noticed quickly was that things like mobility, combat reflexes, and other tactical feats were not used at all. Even speed wasn't a big deal, the halfling just moved to attack.

Then we used minis in combat once and were blown away by the tactics. It actually got us much more interested and involved in combat...rather than just moving to attack we were planning flanking moves, trying to hustle around the main battle line to attack the spell casters, and all sorts of other things.

I know each group is different, but adding minis really helped our group.
Same here!

We do not want to go back to the totally abstract method of our yesteryears, where feats like Sneak Attack and Point Blank Shot, and the differences between ranged weapons (other than their damage), and the occassions for attacks of opportunity, et. all, would get neglected if not outright fall through the cracks. But neither do we want to stay where we're at now, frequently getting bogged down in such a meticulous, exacting wargame requiring miniatures and a scaled mat. As I said, we're looking for a good compromise. (That is, if one exists. And if one does not, then to create it – but how best to approach this, let alone implement it?)
 

Merkuri

Explorer
Personally, I'm a very visual person, and I lose track of things quickly if I have to use only my head to keep track of things. I'm also very meticulous and like things to be exactly right, or as close a humanly possible. While I would be happy to play versions of D&D that do not include a battlemap and minis, I like being able to look at a board and say something like, "I have 50 more feet until the giant can reach me with his club. If I run here or here I can give my allies flanking bonuses." I'd much rather not guess or arbitrarily rule. Even if the game went back to a straightforward attack-roll, damage-roll, attack-roll again system I think I'd feel better with a map and some indication of where I am in relation to the bad guys.
 

Shades of Green

First Post
You could use something similar to Traveller's "range bands" (i.e. using a rowed sheet of paper rather than one with a grid/hexes) - basically tracking movement over a single dimention rather than two. Ranges were divided into five ranges (close, short, medium, long and very long) and each of them into several bands of 25 or so meters. Close and Short were within the same range-band (the one in which the enemy was), with Close being in physical contact and Short within larger-weapon melee range; Medium was 1-2 range-bands away from the target; Long was within 3-10 range-bands; Very Long was within 11 to 20 bands. Movement was relative - you could walk across one range-band in one turn, or run across two in a turn (though you could run a limited amount of times per battle before getting tired).

In D&D, such a system will probably use smaller bands due to the shorter combat turn (6 seconds rather than Traveller's 15); characters within Short range with an opponent will be subject to AoO's; if two characters would be within Short or Close range of the same target they'll flank it; and Point-Blank attack will work only within Short or Close range.
 

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