Would you say no to Druid Shapeshifter + Warshaper?

[NCSUCodeMonkey]

I'm not a big fan of saying no to my players during character creation unless I'm fairly certain that what they're asking for is unbalanced. This seemed like one of those times, what do you think?

A player came to me with a character concept for our new campaign (I'm being lazy and running shackled city). She wants to play a Druid Shapeshifter variant (from PHB2) that eventually takes the Warshaper PrC (from CW). Just looking at the base numbers of attack and damage, it looks to me like her character would be as dangerous as a fighter of equal level before she casts any buffing spells. I know her AC will be low, but she does have buffing spells to mitigate that and healing spells (and eventually fast heal) to repair the damage.

It looks "too good," but maybe I'm just having a knee jerk reaction. Give me some perspective. Would you allow the combination? Does the combo have a weakness that makes it balanced?

 

[atomn]

I'm not great at judging balance but my instinct would be that it's slightly overpowered because the PrC assumed a limited number of shapechanging per day whereas the PHII variant has no limit.

But in looking at it further I think the lack of a limited number of shapechanges per day is balanced by the lack of an animal companion.

The unlimited shapechanging is partially balanced with the regular druid because the first level of Warshaper will have 2 Wildshapes per day at 6 hours each. So while the druid variant will have more freedom due to its ability to unlimitedly shapechange, they will both be in animal form in combat the same amount of time.

The one edge is that the regular druid won't increase their number of times per day to shapechange, which won't be an issue for the variant. And the unlimited shapechanging to get fast healing is much better than a regular druid.

To me it seems more powerful than a regular druid would but, I'd say it comes down to whether or not you think the loss of the animal companion is balanced with the lack of a set number of shapechanges per day.

 

[0-hr]

I imagine it is much like making a changling (Eberron race) Warshaper. He can get into the PrC way earlier than intended and so the Warshaper powers are out of whack compared to other characters of equal level. My theory is that the PrC was made before things like changlings and PHBII druids existed and so the author didn't bother to put in a level requirement (like "BAB +8" or "Concentration 12 ranks"). Now that it is possible to meet the prereqs so early with more recent material, they really should erratta in an implicit level requirement of some sort.

The PHB druid variant by itself is fine. I've played one for several levels and find it well balanced and MUCH easier on the paperwork than the old fashioned druid (which I also played quite a bit). Adding Warshaper before the double-digit levels would be greatly unbalancing though. Later on, it should be ok.

 

[Nifft]

Not a problem. If you want to lose out on high-level Druid spells, that's your loss.

You want +4 Str and Con all day? But you can never cast shapechange? Deal!

Cheers, -- N

 

[NCSUCodeMonkey]

Adding Warshaper before the double-digit levels would be greatly unbalancing though. Later on, it should be ok.

The warshaper does have a BAB requirement, actually (BAB +4), so it was pretty easy to get into the class before 10th. Min entry levels are Drd6, Sor8, Wiz8 for the core rules.

Not a problem. If you want to lose out on high-level Druid spells, that's your loss.

You want +4 Str and Con all day? But you can never cast shapechange? Deal!

Cheers, -- N

That was sort of how I felt at first. I can't even imagine giving up the high level druid spells, but this player is willing to.

One key thing that I just realized I missed is that the warshaper abilities apply while shapeshifting, meaning that a core druid + warshaper in bear form is probably approx equivalent to a shifter druid + warshaper, except that a core druid can cast spells and can use some magical items. That makes way more sense and I can't believe I missed it. I guess this player is just going to have to live without high level spells and spend lots of resources on her AC.

 

[Nifft]

TI guess this player is just going to have to live without high level spells and spend lots of resources on her AC.

The fast healing and higher Con will make up for it, a bit, much like a Barbarian's Rage is supposed to compensate for his lower AC.

But in general, I agree, it's a lower power level overall -- but whatever, Druids are awesomely strong, and even Shifter Druids are pretty darn strong.

Cheers, -- N