Would you say the Dragon Wild Shape feat is a bit powerful?

[Perun]

Since many people on various forums keep mentioning Dragon Wild Shape feat as an excellent option for druids, I decided to see what it was all about. I was quite surprised. The feat says the druid gains "all the extraordinary and supernatural abilities of the dragon whose form you take, but not any spell-like abilities or spellcasting powers".

Note the "extraordinary and supernatural abilities" bit. Not "extraordinary attacks", like normal wildshape grants.

Such supernatural abilities common to all true dragons, for example, include:

• breath weapon (Su),

• immunities (Ex),

• blindsense 60 ft. (Ex),

• keen senses (Ex).

That's what all true dragons get. A druid may get additional abilities, depeding on the dragon species he chooses.

A couple dragon forms (gold, silver, bronze, IIRC), for example, will give the character the Alternate Form Su ability, that allows him to assume any Small or Medium animal or humanoid form, at will, which functions as thpolymorph spell. This ability is actually better than the A Thousand Faces ability the druid gets at 13th-level (A Thousand Faces functions as the alter self spell, and the Alternate Form ability emulates polymorph).

Depending on the forms, the character might also get:

• water breathing (Ex),

• sound imitation (Ex),

• icewalking (Ex),

• spider climb (Ex),

• cloudwalking (Su).

Compared to the standard wildshape forms (animal and plant) available at those levels, Dragon Wild Shape seems way better.

So, I was wondering has anyone had problems with this feat? Have you noticed that it actually disturbs game balance in any way? Does it make druids (already quite powerful characters) too powerful?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Rackhir]

Since but not any spell-like abilities or spellcasting powers".
...
This ability is actually better than the A Thousand Faces ability the druid gets at 13th-level (A Thousand Faces functions as the alter self spell, and the Alternate Form ability emulates polymorph).

Depending on the forms, the character might also get:

• water breathing (Ex),

• sound imitation (Ex),

• icewalking (Ex),

• spider climb (Ex),

• cloudwalking (Su).

That alternate form ability sounds like a SPELL-like ability to me and thus would not be granted according to the text you quoted.

 

[Diirk]

Spell-like ability is clearly defined and differs from a Su ability that is similair to an existing spell. Or should wildshape be a 'spell like' ability too, as its similair to polymorph?

 

[calypso15]

I don't see it being a problem, as long as they can't assume a form with more HD than they have caster levels.

 

[DanMcS]

It's an epic feat that can't be gained until level 27 minimum, by which point they have already had access to Shapechange for 10 levels or so. So no, I don't think the feat is overpowered.

 

[Lawmage]

Bahhh...The entire epic concept is broken anyway and this feat just demonstrates one more aspect of what is broken about it. The entire epic level idea creates a break point at which characters achieve god-like powers. A character with even one epic level is so far superior than a character of 20th level that there is little common ground. Of course, if you like the Epic level stuff and you are comparing characters with 7 epic levels to each other, then no, the feat is not 'broken' in that it is not unbalanced compared to the power available to other such characters.

 

[Perun]

That alternate form ability sounds like a SPELL-like ability to me and thus would not be granted according to the text you quoted.

While it might sound as a spell-like ability, it's actually a supernatural ability, as listed in the 3.5 MM (p. 82, 85, 87).

It's an epic feat that can't be gained until level 27 minimum, by which point they have already had access to Shapechange for 10 levels or so. So no, I don't think the feat is overpowered.

I should probably have mentioned I was referring to the Dragon Wild Shape feat from Draconomicon (p. 105). Prerequisites are: Wis 19, Knowledge (nature) 15 ranks, wild shape ability; and thus can be easily met by a 12-th level druid.

 

[DanMcS]

I should probably have mentioned I was referring to the Dragon Wild Shape feat from Draconomicon (p. 105). Prerequisites are: Wis 19, Knowledge (nature) 15 ranks, wild shape ability; and thus can be easily met by a 12-th level druid.

Mmm, so basically, the prereq is "be a 12th level druid", because what druid doesn't max out that skill?

Must ponder more deeply.

Looking at the dragon stats real quickly, I don't think it's outrageous, even at those levels. They're limited by hit dice in what they can transform into with wild shaping. By 20th level, the best they're going to be doing is a young adult or adult dragon, which is generally CR 12-14. At 12th level, they can do things like a juvenile white dragon, or a very young red dragon, which isn't all that intimidating to 12th level opposition. They can fly, which is pretty good, but many 12th level characters have access to flight, through items or spells. They get some not-bad physical stats, natural attack routines, blindsense and keen senses are pretty good. Breath weapon is OK, but they have attack spells they could be using on those rounds that would be better than the breath weapon. Of all the abilities, I'd actually rate the fact that they can fly as the best one. Flying completely changes combat at mid levels. You can dominate those that can't fly, and can bring your attacks to bear on those that can. It's a paradigm shift on the order of the first time your wizard casts fireball and clears out a whole room.

No, I don't think it's too good, even as a 12th level druid feat. It won't make them into a combat dominator at any level because they're stuck using their own BAB and base hit points, despite the good stats they get from the dragon shape. An equivalent level fighter or barbarian will probably still be outclassing them toe to toe.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Of all the abilities, I'd actually rate the fact that they can fly as the best one. Flying completely changes combat at mid levels. You can dominate those that can't fly, and can bring your attacks to bear on those that can. It's a paradigm shift on the order of the first time your wizard casts fireball and clears out a whole room.

I'd agree and go a bit further. Not only can they fly, they can fly *really fast.* Nothing in the core books can fly as fast as a dragon, not even an air elemental. And Natural Spell should still work in dragon form, true? I'd say that's a pretty devastating combination.

 

[FireLance]

I'd agree and go a bit further. Not only can they fly, they can fly *really fast.* Nothing in the core books can fly as fast as a dragon, not even an air elemental. And Natural Spell should still work in dragon form, true? I'd say that's a pretty devastating combination.

They can fly *really fast* with Poor or worse maneuverability if they assume the form of a Medium or larger dragon. A recipe for disaster in enclosed areas, IMO.