Wounds/Vitality too Deadly?

[Kalthanis]

So when it came out, I was a big fan of the Wounds/Vitality system. I tried to experiment with applying it to D&D even, but found that there were too many disadvantages to it. One was that weapon flair was diminished (since some of them had to lose their higher threat-range to make them viable). Another was that I couldn't use any high damage monsters.

I'm thinking about modifying a 3.5 game (or who knows, maybe a 4th ed game) to incorporate a more deadly system in a low magic, lower powered world (99% of opponents would be other humans). The goal is to always have some way to harm the PCs, I don't want them to ever think they are capable of taking on an entire town, as backwater as it may be (something that can happen in current rules). Basically I'm looking for a grittier d20.

In people's opinion, is the Wounds/Vitality system too deadly when critical hits are involved?

 

[kitsune9]

So when it came out, I was a big fan of the Wounds/Vitality system. I tried to experiment with applying it to D&D even, but found that there were too many disadvantages to it. One was that weapon flair was diminished (since some of them had to lose their higher threat-range to make them viable). Another was that I couldn't use any high damage monsters.

I'm thinking about modifying a 3.5 game (or who knows, maybe a 4th ed game) to incorporate a more deadly system in a low magic, lower powered world (99% of opponents would be other humans). The goal is to always have some way to harm the PCs, I don't want them to ever think they are capable of taking on an entire town, as backwater as it may be (something that can happen in current rules). Basically I'm looking for a grittier d20.

In people's opinion, is the Wounds/Vitality system too deadly when critical hits are involved?

It can be once that critical hit is confirmed and the person who is dishing damage is does 20+ damage. If you want a more deadly system, use the threshold system from the Black Company game setting. I don't have the book in front of me, but I think essentially if you take more hp in damage than you have Con, you have to make a Fort save or go to 0 hp and start dying or die outright. Given that there is virtually no practical magic in the setting, death is a frequent event.

 

[Kalthanis]

Well you would have to alter how Criticals work, just normal damage but goes directly to CON. But a Fort save against more damage than CON sounds like a neat mechanic. Black Company game setting? I'll have to check it out.

Thanks!

 

[Obryn]

I think it probably is too deadly for a standard high-heroic-fantasy 3.5 game.

I love it for my d20 Call of Cthulhu game, though.

-O

 

[kitsune9]

Well you would have to alter how Criticals work, just normal damage but goes directly to CON. But a Fort save against more damage than CON sounds like a neat mechanic. Black Company game setting? I'll have to check it out.

Thanks!

I had picked it up because I'm a big fan of whatever Green Ronin writes and they turned me onto reading the books. The campaign setting is deadly, but while there is a lot of magic, much of the magic isn't practical.

 

[Dagredhel]

Old One-Eye's special chicken and herb soup will fix you right up. (Someone go steal a chicken already!)

On topic, I'd favor equal amounts of "Vitality" and "Wound" points. Have them recover at different rates to represent 'flesh wounds' versus real injury. Don't change weapon damage, just have the extra from crits apply to Wound Points directly. Maybe require a Fort Save to remain conscious if Wound damage received exceeds CON.

Sooo... I don't favor it as-is, but would go for something *like* it.

(That hopefully doesn't taste like spoiled cabbage... as One-Eye described his own soup.)

 

[ronin]

It can be once that critical hit is confirmed and the person who is dishing damage is does 20+ damage. If you want a more deadly system, use the threshold system from the Black Company game setting. I don't have the book in front of me, but I think essentially if you take more hp in damage than you have Con, you have to make a Fort save or go to 0 hp and start dying or die outright. Given that there is virtually no practical magic in the setting, death is a frequent event.

I didn't know about the Black Company game setting but we do something similar in our D20 Modern game. If you take damage equal to your CON you must make a DC 15 fortitude save or drop to zero vitality and begin dying. Characters also regain vitality back at a rate of their level plus their CON per hour.

It has worked well so far. Characters can make it thru multiple encounters but any good shot has a chance to drop someone. Once their Fort saves get a little higher it really won't matter too much. In a game with alot of role playing (roughly 70/30) this system seems to work well.

 

[rgard]

So when it came out, I was a big fan of the Wounds/Vitality system. I tried to experiment with applying it to D&D even, but found that there were too many disadvantages to it. One was that weapon flair was diminished (since some of them had to lose their higher threat-range to make them viable). Another was that I couldn't use any high damage monsters.

I'm thinking about modifying a 3.5 game (or who knows, maybe a 4th ed game) to incorporate a more deadly system in a low magic, lower powered world (99% of opponents would be other humans). The goal is to always have some way to harm the PCs, I don't want them to ever think they are capable of taking on an entire town, as backwater as it may be (something that can happen in current rules). Basically I'm looking for a grittier d20.

In people's opinion, is the Wounds/Vitality system too deadly when critical hits are involved?

Maybe consider not reducing vitality for each 1-2 wound damage point incurred.

Treat the constitution score and the wound points as separate items. Crit damage goes directly to wounds, but doesn't impact the constitution score and therefore doesn't have the knock on effect of reducing vitality on top of the wound damage.

We used this method in a Star Wars Revised edition campaign. I don't remember if this was RAW or a house rule. This was still really lethal.

Thanks,
Rich

 

[eyebeams]

The main problem is that it doesn't scale with level, but damage does. You need some way to either limit Wounds damage to a figure that never goes up or give the character a level based bonus, Examples:

* All Wounds damage from critical hits is 1d6 for x2 weapons, or 2d6 for x3, in addition to standard Vitality damage. No modifiers or anything. This is true until Vitality runs out, in which case crits do bonus damage equal to this amount.

* Alternately, when you take a crit roll a Fort save. Reduce incoming Wound damage by your result-10 (minimum 0). Thus, you have a level-based way to mitigate Wound damage.

 

[Dagredhel]

The main problem is that it doesn't scale with level, but damage does. You need some way to either limit Wounds damage to a figure that never goes up or give the character a level based bonus...

Great point. Making 'Vitality Points' and 'Wound Points' *both* equal to normal hit points also leaves you with Wound Points that increase linearly by level.

(Forget negative hit points. Losing all Vitality renders a character unconscious, losing all Wound Points means death.)