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WP/VP more dangerous or less?

feydras

First Post
I want to add the Wound Point / Vitality Point system into my next campaign instead of standard hit points. I've read it over and want to know what people think, if it is more or less dangerous for the PCs than default hit points. For reference i am using the version printed in the Unearthed Arcana by WOTC.

Arguement for less dangerous: no negative hit points. blows that would normally take a character into the negatives, including death, instead put the character at zero. From here they save to stabilize or begin dying, which takes awhile.

Arguement for more dangerous: with criticals more effective, a few lucky blows could put out of commision the party's main fighters making a TPK (total party kill) more likely.

I see comments here and there (including the sidebar of the system) saying this system is more dangerous, but i just don't see it. It seems to me that the benefit far outweighs the danger.

Am i missing something? Could players/DMs with experience using the system voice their views? I'd like to hear how it has played out in your group.

- Feydras
 

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Aubri_

First Post
Well, I've only used the WP/VP system in Star Wars d20, but I've found it makes combat slightly more deadly. A bit less than 5% of the time, a hit will bypass all their HP, making the high-HP classes more vulnerable. (This is particularly true in SW, where the standard handguns do 3d6 or 3d8 damage, but I digress.) I like the fact that you can "heal" by resting for a while, and it more accurately reflects swashbuckling combat (where actual hits are few but deadly). It also makes injury-delivered poisons much less effective, since you have to deal WP damage just to poison someone. A house rule about saving throws would help--for example, say that the immediate poison damage is unavoidable. That said, I tend to like the VP system. It reduces the need for a "walking band-aid" and it encourages the players to bypass combat in clever ways rather than take everything head-on.
 

Teslacoil1138

First Post
WP/VP is ultimately more deadly, especially in melee where a critical hit by a strong creature can mean instant death. For the traditional D&D campaign I would strongly recommend against it, unless you don't mind your PC's dying every couple of combat sequences... ;)
 

feydras

First Post
Teslacoil1138 said:
WP/VP is ultimately more deadly, especially in melee where a critical hit by a strong creature can mean instant death. For the traditional D&D campaign I would strongly recommend against it, unless you don't mind your PC's dying every couple of combat sequences... ;)

How does any hit mean instant death, unless i read it wrong? I thought that any one hit can not bring you into negative hit points. When brought to zero or below by a hit your hit points become zero and you make a save to stabilize or begin dying. After that you keep saving every round. If you save you stabilize and improve, if you fail you continue dying until you reach -10. Am i reading something wrong?

Speaking of saves: Jesus saves! The rest of you take full damage.

- Feydras
 

Teslacoil1138

First Post
In the d20 Star Wars RPG, it didn't say anything about not being able to be taken into negatives with one hit. So if you were hit with a critical with, let's say, a vehicle blaster cannon, you were pretty much a goner.

They might have changed this for D&D; I don't have Unearthed Arcana (or whatever that book is called) so I guess I can't comment on the D&D version of WP/VP. Sorry :uhoh:
 

Aubri_

First Post
OK, I'm home now so I can glance over the rules in UA. Another couple notes from Star Wars -- Toughness becomes very much more important, because WP are so precious. 3 extra ones is the difference between alive and dead.
Looking over it now, in the WP system there's no negative HP, which is different from Star Wars. That makes the system rather more dangerous.. if you fail to stabilize, you're just plain dead! I can understand wanting to buffer the PCs from 20-point hits at 2 WP, but 1 point beyond 0 is as lethal as 20, too.
Sounds balanced, but use with caution. I'd say it does indeed make battle more deadly, but only mildly so. Since characters tend to be all but immortal except in the face of blatant stupidity, a bit more danger isn't a big problem.
 

feydras

First Post
Here is the relevant section of the D&D WP/VP rules...

"Wound points cannot drop below 0; any damage that would cause a character's wound point total to drop below 0 simply causes the character to have 0 wound points. At 0 wound points, a character is disabled must attempt a DC 15 Fortitude save. If he succeeds on the save, he is merely disabled. If he fails, he falls unconscious and begins dying.
Disabled: ...
Dying: A dying character is unconscious and near death. Each round on his turn a dying character must make a Fortitude save (DC 10, +1 per turn after the first) to become stable.
If the character fails the save, he dies.
If the character succeeds on the save by less than 5, he does not die but... is still dying.
If the character succeeds by 5 or more but by less than 10, he becomes stable but remains unconscious.
If..."

Okay, now that the rules are up there here is a sample case...

A 1st level wizard with Con 11 has 11 wound points and 4 vitality points. Wizard gets critically hit by a fighter wielding a greatsword. Lets assume the fighter has a strength of 18.

Standard system = 4hp wizard takes 4d6+12 (2d6+6 plus 2d6+6) = very dead wizard.

WP/VP system = fighter rolls pretty good and does 12 damage to our wizard. This was a critical hit so it applies directly to wound points.
There are no negative hit points so the wizard is brought to 0 hit points and must make a Fort save DC 15.
Wizard rolls 11 and fails Fort save. Wizard falls unconscious and begins dying. Still at 0 hit points.
Next round wizard must make a Fort save DC 10 or die. If he rolls a save of 15 he is stabilized but unconscious. If he rolls a 20 he is not only stabilized, but now conscious and disabled.
Our wizard rolls an 11 again and is alive but still dying.
Next round our wizard must now make a Fort save DC 11 or die.
He rolls a 16 and stabilizes.

Same concept at higher levels and more resilient classes except the character's Fort saves improve. The DC of the Fort save is independent of the damage done. Under this system it would be almost impossible to kill a high level character in combat. It may be easier to drop them however, with a couple lucky blows. Beware fighting multiple opponents, that's multiple chances for a critical hit.

Anyone see anything i am not seeing that would make this system more dangerous?

- Feydras
 
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Relic

First Post
feydras said:
Standard system = 4hp wizard takes 2d6+4 plus 2d6+4 = one dead or very lucky and rapidly dying wizard.

- Feydras


Except in the UA version weapons no longer receive double or triple damage on critical hits. That great sword would deal 2d6+6 (2-h weapon adds 1.5 strength bonus to damage) on a critical hit. As an adjustment, they made weapons that have a x3 or a x4 critical multiplier have a greater threat range instead. For example, the battle axe with its x3 critical multiplier would actually have a threat range of 19-20 under the UA version, shile a scythe with its normal x4 multiplier would have a threat range of 18-20.
 

Ranger REG

Explorer
feydras said:
Here is the relevant section of the D&D WP/VP rules...
Correct me if I'm wrong...

The Unearthed Arcana version of VP/WP system is the same as the version found in the Star Wars Original Core Rulebook.

The Star Wars Revised Core Rulebook version* uses the negative wound points, must make Fort Save (success = stabilized) or deduct 1 points until death at -10.

*This version is also found in Spycraft Espionage Handbook.
 

Elder-Basilisk

First Post
I've used a modified version of the Unearthed Arcana rules for a couple months in a D&D game.

My modifications:
1. Characters add their level to their number of wound points
2. Instead of damage going directly to wounds on a critical hit, crits deal damage normally to vitality points and then deal only die based damage to wound points.
3. Characters who take wounds have to make a save or be stunned for 1 round not 1d4 rounds.
4. Characters are only fatigued when they are completely out of vitality points, not as soon as they take wound points.
5. NPC classes get vitality points.

6. Some untested rules that I never ended up using because the campaign is only at 6th level so far: Keen is a +2 enhancement that improves the threat range of a weapon by 1 rather than doubling it and Improved Critical improves the threat range of a weapon by 1 rather than doubling it. Heavy fortification armor doesn't exist. Light fortification is a +2 bonus and medium fortification is a +4 bonus.

Without these motifications, I believe the system would be dramatically more deadly than a normal D&D game. I also believe it would be dramatically unbalanced in a number of ways:
1. Too much emphasis on con. If con and toughness are the only ways to gain wounds, a character with a higher con will always be dramatically better than one with a low con. Adding a character's level to wounds means that Toughness is still important and con is still VERY important but it slightly ameliorates the importance of con.
2. With power attack and mid-high level characters, the all-damage goes to wounds system is just plain unworkable. The 12th-14th level normal D&D characters I play or play with regularly do +20 damage on a normal hit (it's not that hard, my 15th level fighter/wizard usually deals 2d4+9 (+6 str, +3 enhancement) plus 1d6+12 fire from Fires of Purity on a normal hit; give him a polymorph or Enlarge Person spell and that goes up dramatically). 8th level half-orc fighter/barbarians often do 2d6+13 points of damage/hit without power attacking but since they usually power attack, make that 2d6+17 to 2d6+29 depending upon how much they power attack. Quite simply, as soon as power-attacking characters leave low levels, combats will just be a matter of "I crit, you die." Limiting the wound damage to base weapon dice solved this problem neatly, making crits dramatic turning points in combat but keeping combats from simply being a matter of who crits first.
3. Related to #2. The D&D weapon system is balanced on the idea that 1 step of crit range is worth roughly 1 die size of damage. A falchion does 2d4 damage to a greatsword's 2d6 and has 1 point more crit range. A heavy pick or a scimitar does 1d6 points of damage to a longsword's 1d8 but has a crit rating one point better. Mathematically, there are advantages and disadvantages to all the kinds of weapons but generally which you choose is a matter of style and preference. They're roughly similar. Not so with the wound/vitality crit system. Since die based damage is not incredibly significant past level 3-4 (at which point, strength, power attack, weapon specialization, etc become more significant than the damage die) and crit=instakill with even minimal power attack, high threat range weapons are so dramatically and obviously better than other weapons, it's not funny. Given the choice between a falchion and a greatsword, that extra 5% chance of killing your foe per swing is FAR better than 2 points of damage. Again, limiting the wound damage to the damage die made this a bit more balanced. Higher damage die weapons are worth considering for the extra wounds they do on crits. 2d6 wounds 33% less often is at least worth considering compared to 2d4 wounds on a more regular basis.
Star Wars doesn't have this problem because all the weapons are balanced with wound/vitality points in mind. (And, IIRC, the only weapon with better than a 20 crit range is the lightsaber--which is supposed to be the game's ueberweapon).
4. The system makes fort saves DRAMATICALLY more important. Every time you're critted, you make a fort save to stay in the fight. In order to avoid dying, you make a fort save. To stabilize you make a fort save. Etc. etc. I reduced the stun duration to 1 round from 1d4 rounds simply because, IME very few combats last more than 4 rounds and the 1d4 rounds of stun would remove characters from combat completely. At one round, fort saves are still dramatically more important than in normal D&D but it's conceivable that a character might not have great fortitude. Being stunned for 1 round is still REALLY nasty since you drop your weapons and your foes get a free round to beat on you.
5. Without vitality points, there's no point in using warriors as adversaries for the PCs. Even if they survive a blow, they're going to be stunned and fatigued. No-vitality storm troopers may be good for Star Wars where characters are supposed to mow them down by the dozen but for a D&D game where I want the town militia to have a hope of defending their town, where I don't want to make the town guard all fighters just to keep the PCs from killing them all, and I want the orc tribe to be respectable warriors without making them all barbarians, it just wouldn't work. Since I want NPC classed characters from orc warriors to noble aristocrats to be potentially serious foes, they have to get vitality points.

With the modifications, the system is about on a par with an ordinary D&D game but magical healing is somewhat less necessary (since characters can recover vitality points quickly between encounters). Characters will hit the dirt more often due to crits and the stunned death spiral but not having the -10 you're dead cap and making fort saves rather than stabilization rolls means that they're less likely to die.

As written, I would say that the system is FAR more deadly than normal D&D. Any foe with a good weapon and power attack will drop a PC 3-6 times out of 20 (depending upon whether or not they have improved crit or a keen weapon). Given the number of fights PCs have to survive, regular TPKs are almost inevitable. (I know I would have had a TPK in the fight where I rolled four consecutive crits with the griffon; using my rules, I took two PCs to death's door and wounded a third instead).
 

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