WW2: Classes or No-Classes?

[TheEldereye]

Last year I finished up a WW2 game for a D20 Modern Campaign. We had a great time playing it and recently we've decided to do a second campaign.

So It has me thinking of changing my ruleset some.

As it stands now a player picks a Nationality, then a Pre-war Occupation, and then a Class - consisting of:
Grunt - tough, good in combat
Covert Operative - a spy type
Recon - fast, scouty type
Squad Leader - the rally the troops guy
The Classes were inspired by V for Victory

Each Pc gets a speciality - basically a feat that fills in just about every kind of military background. I got this from V for Victory too.

Multiclassing is fairly free and open and most people have more than one.

Advanced Classes are available when you qualify:
Commando
Officer
Paratrooper
Partisan
Sniper

Then I read Mutants and Masterminds and saw the point buy, no class system they had and started thinking that maybe that was the way to go.

For those of you that have played M&M - Would it work for a D20 WW2 game or am I better off sticking with Iconic classes?

Would the options hurt or help the character creation process? Anyone out their already try it with WW2?

 

[Henry]

I would still be partial to the Strong/Tough/Smart/Dedicated/etc. classes, myself; further, Grim Tales is probably the way I'd go (think of it as a "refined" set of the d20 modern rules). When you make the classes too specific, you push people toward specific roles, and if that's the goal it's good, but if not, then many character concepts stand to be left out (the supply scrounger, the company clergy, the combat medic, the old grunt who's not great in combat, but has fifty-five wounds and forty purple hearts because the tough old bastard just won't die? etc.)

On the other hand, MnM would give you complete flexibility in feats, skills and abilities, which is what you want to explore here, rather than how many levels in X class someone has. The bad side is that players will need a lot more approval and supervision to root out the non-super stuff and keep it serious.

 

[TheEldereye]

I don't know anything about Grim Tales, but I'll check it out. I've never liked the titles of the D20 Modern Pcs, but I do like the generic feel of them.

stand to be left out (the supply scrounger, the company clergy, the combat medic, the old grunt who's not great in combat, but has fifty-five wounds and forty purple hearts because the tough old bastard just won't die? etc.)
On the other hand, MnM would give you complete flexibility in feats, skills and abilities, which is what you want to explore here, rather than how many levels in X class someone has. The bad side is that players will need a lot more approval and supervision to root out the non-super stuff and keep it serious.

When I did the rules for it I tried to leave lots of room for just about any WW2 type by allowing ample feats and with the pre-war occupation/nationality choices which added skills and abilities before any PC class was chosen. I can see how I could make any PC class, but I worry that others would feel restricted by the class titles, which is why I was thinking of no classes.

I figure if I used M&M, I'd just do up a rule set based on the same concept of generating your PCs by points. THat is if the system allows it. I've never played M&M, could you use the generation system for other systems or is to tied to the Supers genre?

 

[Aaron2]

I figure if I used M&M, I'd just do up a rule set based on the same concept of generating your PCs by points. THat is if the system allows it. I've never played M&M, could you use the generation system for other systems or is to tied to the Supers genre?

M&M isn't that different from normal d20; it still has feats and skills and BAB (kinda). Its just that all skills are class skills and feats generally don't have restrictions. It has levels but they are soft levels; they just set a limit on skills and some abilities but the GM has free power to award levels as he sees fit. Getting a level doesn't make you better, it just ups the limit on your skills and abilities.

M&M does come with some Templates (I think they call them something else). Templates can be built for typical soldier roles (grunt, mortar crew, tank driver, leader, etc). Plus, because of the way that d20 abilities just add to each other you can make a set of background templates and let the player choose a background template plus a "soldier training" template to make a complete character. Just add the two sets of skills and feats together. Even if doing this violates your "level" it isn't that big of a deal.


Aaron

 

[TheEldereye]

M&M isn't that different from normal d20; it still has feats and skills and BAB (kinda). Its just that all skills are class skills and feats generally don't have restrictions. It has levels but they are soft levels; they just set a limit on skills and some abilities but the GM has free power to award levels as he sees fit. Getting a level doesn't make you better, it just ups the limit on your skills and abilities.

M&M does come with some Templates (I think they call them something else). Templates can be built for typical soldier roles (grunt, mortar crew, tank driver, leader, etc). Plus, because of the way that d20 abilities just add to each other you can make a set of background templates and let the player choose a background template plus a "soldier training" template to make a complete character. Just add the two sets of skills and feats together. Even if doing this violates your "level" it isn't that big of a deal.


Aaron

Do both editions of M&M approach it the same way. If I was going to pick one up to read over for ideas - is one better then the other?

I actually was thinking this morning of templates being provided for those players that like a framework and then a pool of points for those people that want to build from the ground up.

 

[dougmander]

It seems to me that you'd want to stick with the d20 modern fast/tough/smart/etc. model. A grunt would be just a Tough character under another name. A commando might have fast/smart levels, and so on. I would give "basic training" to all your GIs, which would translate into a standard set of skill points and weapon proficiencies. Then, let your players pick starting feats to personalize their characters. Advanced training (airborne, ranger, and so on) would be represented as advanced classes, with prereqs for entering.

 

[Henry]

Do both editions of M&M approach it the same way. If I was going to pick one up to read over for ideas - is one better then the other?

I actually was thinking this morning of templates being provided for those players that like a framework and then a pool of points for those people that want to build from the ground up.

Both MnM1 and MnM2 are good for this; however, MnM2 has the advantage in that

1) It was designed with different starting point totals in mind (in both editions, the default was 15 PP per character level, but first edition linked it to character level, and balanced it that way.) In MM2, character points and character level are independent.

2) They have more solid and granular point purchase rules on attack bonus, skill points, feats, etc. Under default MM1 rules, a skill-oriented character was MUCH harder to pull off; in MM2, it's easier.

If playing MM2, I'd suggest a character level 3 to 5, with maybe 60 to 100 points to create with; that gives you "tough humans" but not nearly "gods of the battlefield." I'd also look aty their options for making damage saves more deadly, because Mutants and Masterminds by default doesn't use hit points, but "damage saves" that on the default level don't result in much death. However, there are alternate rules for cranking up lethality, because people like playing their Watchmen as much as they like playing their JLA.

(I should also note I don't own the MM2 rules yet, but I own the MM1 rules, and I've been following the Green Ronin forums religiously.)

Another suggestion? Research True20, a generic game system created by Green Ronin heavily based on Mutants and Masterminds, that gives all of the rules but none of the superhero trappings.

 

[kingpaul]

Another d20 Modern set of supplements to consider is RPG Objects' Blood and Guts 2 line. The primary book is Military Training Manual. This gives several AdCs: Assault Training, Recon Training, Infantry Training, Specialist, Leadership Training.

 

[TheEldereye]

If playing MM2, I'd suggest a character level 3 to 5, with maybe 60 to 100 points to create with; that gives you "tough humans" but not nearly "gods of the battlefield."

Another suggestion? Research True20, a generic game system created by Green Ronin heavily based on Mutants and Masterminds, that gives all of the rules but none of the superhero trappings.

I actually bought a PDF of True20 over the weekend because I wanted to check out the Damage Save rules. I've been a fan of the "wound level" since my days playing the James Bond RPG. I like them, I'm surprised that you say they make it harder to die? My feeling when reading them, was "wow...might need to roll up back up PCs". Maybe it was just how the guns from WWII converted - most were +2 to +6 for pistols, but the M2 .50 Machinegun was a +10, and the M1 Garand was a +8. I had been using the VP/WP system and although it worked fine I've never liked describing it while playing.

I was thinking today that I'd go with begining PCs actually being the equivelent of 3rd level D20 PCs. When we were playing WW2 D20 last year we always made 3rd level troopers and we had plenty of death over our short campaign.

What I've been thinking today is that a player would first select a nationality. It would grant a feat like special ability. Then a player would chose skills representing pre-war background. A cap would be in place (maybe) based on the age of the PC (i don't know). Then the final step would be to set up Saves, BAB, Feats, etc for the military training. In the last two parts templates would be available for those that like them or to help design the soldier your looking for. All of this would basically create a PC of about 3rd level D20 capability.

 

[Bobitron]

I'm running a WWII pbp game which you can find here. I used d20 Modern with a dash of the background/class skill system from Grim Tales. Seems to be working well enough so far. I ran the same thing as a one-shot for my face-to-face group, they had a great time.

I haven't picked up M&M 2 yet, so I can't comment there.