XP for Traps?

[awayfarer]

Why yes; a proper trapfinder does consume less resources - why, I even mentioned this in the post you're responding to: "Yes, it costs extra when you're not using the class designed for trapfinding (the Rogue, and other classes that get the ability) but that's to be expected." I mean, if I hadn't specifically mentioned that, you'd have me dead to rights here.

But you seriously downplay the severity of it. There's no comparison between a cheap tool that can be used indefinitely in multiple situations and one thats anywhere from twelve to twenty-four times more expensive, has a finite number of uses and doesn't have all of the same capabilities. There's no comparison between a mundane 30 GP tool with potentially infinite uses vs a magic 375-750 gp item with a limited number of uses.

It's the difference between buying bus fare and buying a bus.

And no, it doesn't disable the trap in every case - but in most cases, you don't need to disable the trap; avoiding it is good enough. Once you know where it is, you can simply go around. I even gave an example of having the meatshield in the party MAKE a way around when one isn't immediately available.

First, I don't buy that in most cases you can simply avoid a trap. Some maybe, but most? Second, what exactly are the residents of the average dungeon actually doing while some guy is breaking down a wall over the course of two and a half minutes? It's a fine way to avoid a trap except for the fact that it takes much longer, carries more risk and isn't possible if you actually need to go in the trapped direction.

It will occasionally miss a trap - but then, so will the rogue. The Wizard who's doing this will miss traps that are geared for the Wizard doing that; the Rogue will either miss traps randomly due to the skill check, or if the Rogue skips the random factor by way of taking 10 or 20, then the Rogue misses the ones where the DM says the Rogue misses due to a high DC (the ones where the DM simply decides that the Rogue misses them, essentially). It amounts to the same thing.

DM capriciouness is not a very good way of comparing two things nor is randomness. It could be safely said that both suffer the same chance to miss a trap due to either of those things.

And they'll actually both go at about the same speed (save for when a trap is actually encountered, or when the Rogue is taking 20, rather than taking 10) - you can only search one square per round; being exhaustive, your party's effective move when the Rogue is finding traps is five feet. The unseen servant will move at basically that same pace due to the load it is dragging.

Don't get me wrong - an actual Rogue with max ranks in Search and Disable Device will do it better and at a lower cost - but the prepared Wizard can do without, after about level 3.[/QUOTE]

It's not just that the cost is lower, it's lower by a massive amount. At level three assuming standard wealth a wizard is going to need to spend roughly half their wealth to purchase a wan of summon monster 1 or unseen servant. If they make it themselves they need the right feats and are still dropping a lot of time and money on something that another class can do much, much more cheaply and effectively. If you don't bother with items you run out of "trapfinding" spells quickly.

 

[Jack Simth]

But you seriously downplay the severity of it. There's no comparison between a cheap tool that can be used indefinitely in multiple situations and one thats anywhere from twelve to twenty-four times more expensive, has a finite number of uses and doesn't have all of the same capabilities. There's no comparison between a mundane 30 GP tool with potentially infinite uses vs a magic 375-750 gp item with a limited number of uses.

There's no comparison between forcing someone in the party to play a particular role and coming up with ways to let everyone play the character they wish without compromising the party.

If you HAVE a good trapfinder, by all means - let the player make use of the class ability. It works better overall. If you don't, that's okay - there's ways around it, it's just more expensive (much like not having a heal-bot Cleric; a wand of Cure Light and one of: Rogue with UMD, Paladin, Ranger, Bard, or Druid will cover it outside of combat).

The wand of Unseen Servant is reasonably likely to spring twenty or more traps; that's going to run you two or three levels pretty easily. By that time, you've more than recouped the expense, unless your DM is rather stingy; much like the Wand of Cure Light wounds you use to recover HP after a battle.

It's the difference between buying bus fare and buying a bus.

Yeah - with the wand, you buy bus fare time and time again. The Rogue takes a share of the treasure forever. Which costs more, long-term?

First, I don't buy that in most cases you can simply avoid a trap. Some maybe, but most?

Traps are usually placed at choke points, or on containers. Magic lets the creator be immune to the trap, but otherwise, sane people just don't put active traps in their living quarters; there's too much risk of it going off when it's not supposed to do so. Magic traps will be located by the Wizard with Detect Magic/arcane sight, except where the DM has included a non-standard upgrade to counter the tactic. With containers, you have the unseen servant open them, while you stand back. Trap goes off, killing the unseen servant - but generally, the unseen servant will have still opened the thing. Alternately, use a Knock spell to open it up - either way, the goal is to be out of the target zone of the trap when it goes off. Yeah, the BBEG may have two Symbols in his throne room that will go off when you step inside... but then, the BBEG is liable to be there anyway, not letting the rogue search for them.

Second, what exactly are the residents of the average dungeon actually doing while some guy is breaking down a wall over the course of two and a half minutes?

I imagine about the same thing they're doing when you get into a loud fight for three rounds, or "fort up" to take a nap. Twiddling their thumbs while they're not being thought about. It's unrealistic that you could raid an organized dungeon - at the first encounter, someone is going to shout for backup (or scream in pain - little difference from a practical perspective if there's some form of mutual defense pact going on). If you like, we can have the Cleric cast Silence from a collaberated scroll or wand so that there's no noise involved.

It's a fine way to avoid a trap except for the fact that it takes much longer, carries more risk and isn't possible if you actually need to go in the trapped direction.

There's a reason I listed 2700 hp, rather than the 900 book value for a 10x10x5 block of unworked stone; I'm assuming the Fighter will need to tunnel far enough to actually go around the trap, to get to get back on "the path" on the other side of the trap, rather than through it. You're still going in the trapped direction, you're just taking a detour to avoid the trap itself.

DM capriciouness is not a very good way of comparing two things nor is randomness. It could be safely said that both suffer the same chance to miss a trap due to either of those things.

Without the build-up, it is not safe to say that they've got roughly the same chance to miss a trap; that would be putting forth an unsupported hypothesis, which occasionally attracts people who like to point it out. The point of the build-up was to say that they have extremely comparable miss-chances, without much fear of contradiction.

It's not just that the cost is lower, it's lower by a massive amount. At level three assuming standard wealth a wizard is going to need to spend roughly half their wealth to purchase a wan of summon monster 1 or unseen servant. If they make it themselves they need the right feats and are still dropping a lot of time and money on something that another class can do much, much more cheaply and effectively. If you don't bother with items you run out of "trapfinding" spells quickly.

Yes, but 3rd is just about the minimum level for pulling it off. It costs essentially the same per trap found at 3rd as it does at 20th. Besides - it's a party resource, much like a wand of Cure Light Wounds; you get a portion of the cash from each party member (and it's usually fairly easy to get people to donate an even share - "okay, do you want to take point, then?"). If you've got a more traditional trapfinder, by all means - let the player fill the role; there's no need to steal another player's thunder. This is just another way to make it happen if nobody is playing a proper trapfinder in the party, without forcing someone into a particular role.

 

[irdeggman]

It's not just that the cost is lower, it's lower by a massive amount. At level three assuming standard wealth a wizard is going to need to spend roughly half their wealth to purchase a wan of summon monster 1 or unseen servant. If they make it themselves they need the right feats and are still dropping a lot of time and money on something that another class can do much, much more cheaply and effectively. If you don't bother with items you run out of "trapfinding" spells quickly.

But that is the point.

A party without a rogue can get past traps, just like a party without a cleric (or other healer) can survive a dungeon. It is just easier to do when you have the "proper equipment", in this case someone with the appropriate skills/talents.

There are very few low level traps that kill a party outright. If there are then it is inbalanced in the first place - sort of like encountering things of CR of +4 above the avg party level on a routine basis.

Making absolutes like only a rogue can find/remove traps is a misleading paradigm - since the point is to get past the trap.

At higher levels there are plenty of spells available to get around traps.

2nd level cleric spell - Find Traps will help locate the trap.

Spells like; Gaseous Form (Air 3, Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 3) is an extremely good one to use before the dimension door train or teleport chain of spells comes into play.

 

[awayfarer]

There's no comparison between forcing someone in the party to play a particular role and coming up with ways to let everyone play the character they wish without compromising the party.

Who's talking about forcing someone into a role? I'm just pointing out that trapfinding is basically the sole responsibility of the rogue (or other class with trapfinding) and will generally be dealt with by that particular class alone.

If you HAVE a good trapfinder, by all means - let the player make use of the class ability. It works better overall. If you don't, that's okay - there's ways around it, it's just more expensive (much like not having a heal-bot Cleric; a wand of Cure Light and one of: Rogue with UMD, Paladin, Ranger, Bard, or Druid will cover it outside of combat).

Which is entirely unlike the trapfinding ability, which has no direct analog. All of the classes mentioned have some of the clerics ability to heal. They draw from some of the exact same abilities.

The wand of Unseen Servant is reasonably likely to spring twenty or more traps; that's going to run you two or three levels pretty easily. By that time, you've more than recouped the expense, unless your DM is rather stingy; much like the Wand of Cure Light wounds you use to recover HP after a battle.

Okay, you have several hours of a "trapfinder" with only 6 HP, that will not trigger certain traps. Any traps that deal even meager aoe damage will destroy it. A pit trap is a huge obstacle because it cannt help but fall. In your example, should the US fall into the pit you either need to A: descend into the pit to get those rocks or B: Spend time gathering a hundred pounds of junk to repeat the process. Even if the US survives the drop (Which, IIRC shouldn't technically "kill" it) If the climb check DC is above 10. Lastly, its making noise by dragging around junk and the caster (whose move silently skill is likely a joke) needs to keep within sight of it or it goes poof.

It will also not trigger traps that are set to go off when a living target passes by. Yes you could have a wand of summon monster I but that requires the purchase of yet another magic item.

Yeah - with the wand, you buy bus fare time and time again. The Rogue takes a share of the treasure forever. Which costs more, long-term?

So subbing in a wizard for a rogue somehow saves you money when the wizard is using up that same shere to do the same job albeit at a much, much higher cost? Or are you suggesting that you'd rather have three PC's without a trapfinder than four PC's with one?

Traps are usually placed at choke points, or on containers. Magic lets the creator be immune to the trap, but otherwise, sane people just don't put active traps in their living quarters; there's too much risk of it going off when it's not supposed to do so. Magic traps will be located by the Wizard with Detect Magic/arcane sight, except where the DM has included a non-standard upgrade to counter the tactic. With containers, you have the unseen servant open them, while you stand back. Trap goes off, killing the unseen servant - but generally, the unseen servant will have still opened the thing. Alternately, use a Knock spell to open it up - either way, the goal is to be out of the target zone of the trap when it goes off. Yeah, the BBEG may have two Symbols in his throne room that will go off when you step inside... but then, the BBEG is liable to be there anyway, not letting the rogue search for them.

I am aware of where traps are generally placed. The US may spring that trap but depending on the trap, may not have disarmed it. Traps in a combat situation are probably not going to be worked on by anyone at first, and are moot.

I imagine about the same thing they're doing when you get into a loud fight for three rounds, or "fort up" to take a nap. Twiddling their thumbs while they're not being thought about. It's unrealistic that you could raid an organized dungeon - at the first encounter, someone is going to shout for backup (or scream in pain - little difference from a practical perspective if there's some form of mutual defense pact going on). If you like, we can have the Cleric cast Silence from a collaberated scroll or wand so that there's no noise involved.

So as a DM you've never called for a hide or move silently check because you would never introduce the possibility that nearby dangers could get involved? Or as a player, you've never rolled the same because you figure that it's unrealistic that anything exists other than wahts in front of your PC at the time? If you're really suggesting throwing in an item to cast silence on the clunky wizard and his US thats dragging around a bag of rocks, that jacks up the cost further.

There's a reason I listed 2700 hp, rather than the 900 book value for a 10x10x5 block of unworked stone; I'm assuming the Fighter will need to tunnel far enough to actually go around the trap, to get to get back on "the path" on the other side of the trap, rather than through it. You're still going in the trapped direction, you're just taking a detour to avoid the trap itself.

Or you could disarm it with a 30 gp tool.

Without the build-up, it is not safe to say that they've got roughly the same chance to miss a trap; that would be putting forth an unsupported hypothesis, which occasionally attracts people who like to point it out. The point of the build-up was to say that they have extremely comparable miss-chances, without much fear of contradiction.

Even if the chance to find a trap were the same, the example you've cited is far more complicated and more costly.

Yes, but 3rd is just about the minimum level for pulling it off. It costs essentially the same per trap found at 3rd as it does at 20th. Besides - it's a party resource, much like a wand of Cure Light Wounds; you get a portion of the cash from each party member (and it's usually fairly easy to get people to donate an even share - "okay, do you want to take point, then?"). If you've got a more traditional trapfinder, by all means - let the player fill the role; there's no need to steal another player's thunder. This is just another way to make it happen if nobody is playing a proper trapfinder in the party, without forcing someone into a particular role.

And I'm not saying that anyone has to play a trapfinder, just that
A: The trapfinding ability makes a particular type of encounter far less difficult, time consuming and expensive, B: That said encounters are very rarely conquered by anyone other than a lone PC of the appropriate class and, C: That even in situations where it is possible to overcome those encounters, it is far less effecient than having a PC of the right class with a cheap tool.

 

[irdeggman]

And I'm not saying that anyone has to play a trapfinder, just that
A: The trapfinding ability makes a particular type of encounter far less difficult, time consuming and expensive, B: That said encounters are very rarely conquered by anyone other than a lone PC of the appropriate class and, C: That even in situations where it is possible to overcome those encounters, it is far less effecient than having a PC of the right class with a cheap tool.

Again making it less difficult is the point. Having the "right tool" (e.g., someone who is good at trap finding) is the easiest way - but by no means the only way.

Like the easiest way to combat undead is via turning undead. Which is only a cleric (and paladin) thing - but the paladin really is bad at it in comparison (and only starts being able to do it at 3rd level)

Pretty much a party fighting undead with a cleric makes the encounter a whole lot easier, just like a party encountering traps with a rogue makes the encounter a whole lot easier (assuming the point is to get past the trap and not merely to find the trap).

 

[nittanytbone]

Just like a lone CR 2 skeleton is boring (the cleric zaps it), a lone CR 2 trap is boring (the rogue disarms it or the fighter eats the damage).

However, a trap combined with a monster is much more challenging and merits an increase in CR.

 

[Jack Simth]

Just like a lone CR 2 skeleton is boring (the cleric zaps it), a lone CR 2 trap is boring (the rogue disarms it or the fighter eats the damage).

However, a trap combined with a monster is much more challenging and merits an increase in CR.

Yes; you can even use the formula in the DMG for multiple challenges in the encounter. Two CR 2 challenges at the same time is an encounter level of 4 (and gives double the XP of a CR 2 encounter).

Who's talking about forcing someone into a role? I'm just pointing out that trapfinding is basically the sole responsibility of the rogue (or other class with trapfinding) and will generally be dealt with by that particular class alone.

Only if the trap's done the boring way (encountered in isolation with no time pressure). All I'm pointing out is that there's other ways to do it.

Which is entirely unlike the trapfinding ability, which has no direct analog. All of the classes mentioned have some of the clerics ability to heal. They draw from some of the exact same abilities.

As there's a cleric spell that gives the caster a temporary ability to find traps as the Rogue does (and a bonus to Search to go with it), many of the other classes can get trapfinding temporarily as well. Bards have Use Magic Device as a class skill, and so can get the spell off a wand/scroll. A Cleric just casts the spell directly. A Wizard, Sorcerer, or Druid can go into Loremaster to gain UMD as a class skill, and get the spell the exact same way as the Bard. Anyone can take UMD cross-class and get it that way. Any of those approaches is much a trapfinder as the rogue with Use Magic Device and a Wand of Cure Light Wounds is a healer.

Okay, you have several hours of a "trapfinder" with only 6 HP, that will not trigger certain traps. Any traps that deal even meager aoe damage will destroy it.

Which is obvious, and locates the trigger point of the trap - enough to get around. That's the point of him.

A pit trap is a huge obstacle because it cannt help but fall. In your example, should the US fall into the pit you either need to A: descend into the pit to get those rocks or B: Spend time gathering a hundred pounds of junk to repeat the process.

How's that a problem? I'm assuming each trap found gets rid of an Unseen Servant (actually, at 50 charges for 20 traps, I'm assuming each trap found costs you two or three of them, either by trap-springing or expiring before a trap is encountered), and that the spell will need to be recast, after. If you like, we can have a rope trail the bag of rocks, and just haul it back up. A rope only runs about 2 gp.

Even if the US survives the drop (Which, IIRC shouldn't technically "kill" it) If the climb check DC is above 10.

So we wander out of range and let it expire. How's that a problem?

Lastly, its making noise by dragging around junk and the caster (whose move silently skill is likely a joke) needs to keep within sight of it or it goes poof.

As opposed to lugging the party tank around who may very well have a -10 Armor Check Penalty? Or do none of your opponents ever have the spot and listen to catch a rogue that gets too far ahead?

It will also not trigger traps that are set to go off when a living target passes by. Yes you could have a wand of summon monster I but that requires the purchase of yet another magic item.

That's what the rat/snail is for. Besides - any such trap will either be based on magic (and get found by the Wizard Concentrating on Detect Magic) or be a creature in hiding (which isn't properly a trap for a rogue to disarm anyway).

So subbing in a wizard for a rogue somehow saves you money when the wizard is using up that same shere to do the same job albeit at a much, much higher cost? Or are you suggesting that you'd rather have three PC's without a trapfinder than four PC's with one?

Mostly I'm just pointing out that such metaphors are way too easily turned on their heads, and are best avoided.

I am aware of where traps are generally placed. The US may spring that trap but depending on the trap, may not have disarmed it. Traps in a combat situation are probably not going to be worked on by anyone at first, and are moot.

He doesn't have to disarm it. Once you know it is there, and you know the general nature of the trap, you can usually go around - even if this means digging through solid stone.

So as a DM you've never called for a hide or move silently check because you would never introduce the possibility that nearby dangers could get involved? Or as a player, you've never rolled the same because you figure that it's unrealistic that anything exists other than wahts in front of your PC at the time? If you're really suggesting throwing in an item to cast silence on the clunky wizard and his US thats dragging around a bag of rocks, that jacks up the cost further.

Sound of combat is a DC 0 Listen check. If the denizens of the dungeon know that invaders are bad for them, they'll be following the trail of bodies to the place where you fort up. Your Hide/Move Silently check doesn't much matter for the scenarios I listed. How often does your DM have half the dungeon come after you at once the first or second time you get into a fight, or the first time you stop for eight hours to rest and replenish?

Besides - if they come at you in the hallway, it's a good thing; they're limited to basically one at a time. Have the sparkcaster put some kind of barrier to guard the rear, then ready an action to disrupt or counterspell any spells or spell-like abilities; park the meatshield in front; put the healer wielding a polearm just behind the meatshield. You'd be amazed how many critters you can successfully take on that way.

If you're worried about it, have the Cleric cast Silence on a string, and put it around the bag. It'll last for long enough to get from one room to another in any situation where the distance penalties to Listen aren't high enough that it doesn't matter anyway. And with the 20 foot radius of the spell, vs. the 25+ foot range on the Unseen Servant, you can even avoid the effect overlapping the spellcasters.

Or you could disarm it with a 30 gp tool.

Yes, but can you trust the rogue who uses it?

The point of the exercise is not that you can do it better than a rogue (I've repeatedly said a rogue can do it better, and for less), but that you don't necessarily need one to do the job.

Even if the chance to find a trap were the same, the example you've cited is far more complicated and more costly.

Which is, incidentally, something I've mentioned - repeatedly.

And I'm not saying that anyone has to play a trapfinder, just that
A: The trapfinding ability makes a particular type of encounter far less difficult, time consuming and expensive, B: That said encounters are very rarely conquered by anyone other than a lone PC of the appropriate class and, C: That even in situations where it is possible to overcome those encounters, it is far less effecient than having a PC of the right class with a cheap tool.

Other than that you're phrasing point C in such a way as to imply that non-rogue trap solutions aren't usually possible (most traps can be bypassed by tunneling or other methods, and don't need to be disarmed), you're not wrong.

The point's that you solve the trap situation without the rogue in most cases, even if it is a bit more expensive (the more common method of non-rogue trap solutions is the "dwarven detection device" or "monk detection device" or even the "dwarven monk detection device"). The Unseen Servant with Bag O Rocks (and a few other things) is just the Wizard's solution.

 

[awayfarer]

The point of the exercise is not that you can do it better than a rogue (I've repeatedly said a rogue can do it better, and for less), but that you don't necessarily need one to do the job.

Which is, incidentally, something I've mentioned - repeatedly.

Other than that you're phrasing point C in such a way as to imply that non-rogue trap solutions aren't usually possible (most traps can be bypassed by tunneling or other methods, and don't need to be disarmed), you're not wrong.

I've cut the rest because I think everything hinges on this here. I have not said, even once, that it is impossible to find/bypass/disarm traps without a rogue.

Put it to you another way: It is possible to cook soup with a flamethrower. Compared to, say, a stovetop, it's also pointlessly dangerous and inefficient. It is possible though.

If this is the case then we seem to be arguing the same point but differing on how worthwhile it is. I have not once said that trap encounters are impossible without a rogue. Take a second look at the first post on the board which says (with added emphasis)...

Traps are generally only going to be encountered and dealt with by the party trapfinder. This assumes that you're sending the poor sod off alone to take a peak at things.

 

[irdeggman]

I've cut the rest because I think everything hinges on this here. I have not said, even once, that it is impossible to find/bypass/disarm traps without a rogue.

Bolded emphasis mine.


And as most have pointed out to you that the "bypass" part is absolutely incorrect.

There are myriad ways of doing it, as have also been laid out.

Bypass in this context (mine at least) being getting past or around (the thing that awards xp for a trap).

It is easier to get past a trap with a rogue (since the party will take less damage/use less resources to accomplish this) but it is possible without one (even with one who either doesn't check or fails a lot of rolls {which I've had in parties I've run several times, he found every trap but. . .})..

If xp is awarded for getting past a trap then there are more ways to do it then finding/disabling the trap.

 

[irdeggman]

If this is the case then we seem to be arguing the same point but differing on how worthwhile it is. I have not once said that trap encounters are impossible without a rogue. Take a second look at the first post on the board which says (with added emphasis)...

But you have said that xp shouldn't be awarded for something that only 1 class can do - which is a contrary position, IMO. Since it is not impossible to get past traps without a rogue.