D&D 5E XP Tokens: An Alternate Leveling System

[Reynard]

I am working up a new system for characters gaining XP and leveling for an upcoming megadungeon adventure and I was hoping to have some eyes on it from the community. Your thoughts and suggestions are welcome.

The following if from the first draft of my player info packet, so nothing is set in stone yet.
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We are going to do something different with XP that is a compromise between awarding XP for challenges and milestone leveling: characters will receive an “XP token” each time the survive an exploration into the ruined city (up to 3rd level) or a delve into the Hellstair. Levels are purchased with XP tokens. Gaining a level costs as many XP tokens as the level you are buying (so getting to second level costs 2 XP tokens, etc.). If your character does not survive they do not gain an XP token, and being raised from the dead costs an XP token in addition to whatever monetary and/or story cost it might require. You may also trade in an XP token for 3 Inspiration points, to be used normally. You may also purchase an XP token with unused Inspiration at the same exchange rate. You gain Inspiration for playing to your bonds, flaws, etc.. as well as making progress toward your Hellstair motivation or having that motivation cause you detriments.
Replacement characters for those that die or are retired are created at the same level as the lost character, but start with no XP tokens.
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Thanks!

 

[iserith]

What kind of player behavior are you hoping to incentivize with this XP method?

 

[Reynard]

What kind of player behavior are you hoping to incentivize with this XP method?

I have found that the "kill everything" response to challenge XP (yes even when I explain "overcome does not have to mean kill") is tiresome, and I personally find milestone leveling too arbitrary. I want them to go DO stuff, explore the dungeon, pull out some treasure, rinse repeat.

 

[iserith]

Okay, how do you define "an exploration" (of the ruined city) and "delve" (in the Hellstair) as a discrete thing? Is that per session or some other metric?

 

[Shiroiken]

All in all, not a bad concept, but two issues/questions:

1) If a character dies, but is raised while they have 0 tokens (having just leveled), what happens?

2) You might want to have a more definite definition of how to earn an XP token. By your current definition, they could simply enter the area, encounter 1 event (combat, exploration, or social encounter), then leave to get the XP token. This could even be done multiple times per session to gain a lot of quick levels. With this system, I'd suggest instead granting an number of XP tokens based on how many encounters they have (including exploration and social), so that they need to go far enough to make it a worthwhile expedition (say 5 encounters). You could even lower the amount after the first, allowing a good expedition to provide multiple tokens (say 2 tokens for 8 encounters, and 3 for 10).


While this is an interesting concept, I use a different method to get the same result. I only award half the XP from defeating monsters. In addition, I add XP to various exploration and social encounters, plus sometimes a quest award, to make up the difference. The XP comes out about the same, but players tend to avoid random fight, as they did in 1E, since the risk/reward isn't as good.

 

[5ekyu]

I am working up a new system for characters gaining XP and leveling for an upcoming megadungeon adventure and I was hoping to have some eyes on it from the community. Your thoughts and suggestions are welcome.

The following if from the first draft of my player info packet, so nothing is set in stone yet.
----------
We are going to do something different with XP that is a compromise between awarding XP for challenges and milestone leveling: characters will receive an “XP token” each time the survive an exploration into the ruined city (up to 3rd level) or a delve into the Hellstair. Levels are purchased with XP tokens. Gaining a level costs as many XP tokens as the level you are buying (so getting to second level costs 2 XP tokens, etc.). If your character does not survive they do not gain an XP token, and being raised from the dead costs an XP token in addition to whatever monetary and/or story cost it might require. You may also trade in an XP token for 3 Inspiration points, to be used normally. You may also purchase an XP token with unused Inspiration at the same exchange rate. You gain Inspiration for playing to your bonds, flaws, etc.. as well as making progress toward your Hellstair motivation or having that motivation cause you detriments.
Replacement characters for those that die or are retired are created at the same level as the lost character, but start with no XP tokens.
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Thanks!

First

In my experience systems that put advancement or development and gimmick points (inspiration in 5e) as buys off the same currency tend to be ones that do not focus on advancement as much - no zero to hero course - and even then they do not work well.

In a 5e based game, this I would believe to be more problematic. But, everytime I have put "advancement as currency" that can be spent for other things as in various systems it has not done whatever it was I was going for.

Second, I would strongly recommend basing token per level cost on tiers or a multiple of tiers or tier squared, instead of level. It sets a series of common blocks of length instead of an ever escalating state with the play itself being "longer" to resolve as the levels progress through say the long tier 2.

In my own campaign, the advancement is tier x 3-4 sessions. I never find a need to pay my PCs with xp to go do stuff. That's what the players came to do.

As for docking dead PCs for getting raised, in my experience, it's a crap shoot as to whether that character died "by their player's hand" or died due to someone else in the party choices. So, that seems to be pretty punitive. It seems to definitely gonna nudge more towards rewarding "save myself" and "me first" over "teamwork."
Why not instead charge everyone an xp token if a teammate dies - raised or not - to promote more team saves team play?
Is "save me, let you die" kinda conflict the goal?

 

[Reynard]

Okay, how do you define "an exploration" (of the ruined city) and "delve" (in the Hellstair) as a discrete thing? Is that per session or some other metric?

Yeah, I was thinking "session" for the most part but want it to be significant. In other words, I don't want to reward one room at a time going nova and retreating. Maybe a scaling reward, where the more exploration performed before retreat results in increased rewards?

I am leaning toward the XP token idea because a) individual encounter XP is too fiddly, but b) milestone leveling is too arbitrary. Also I don't necessarily care what they do. I mean, if they spend all session searching and mapping and taking rubbings of old runes while talking about Bob the Fighter's camp habits, that deserves XP as much as killing monsters, evading traps or negotiating with hungry otyughs.

 

[iserith]

As my Eberron campaign enters the final stretch, I've been working on my next campaign which is going to be a megadungeon so certain aspects of what you're doing is what I'm currently fleshing out.

Yeah, I was thinking "session" for the most part but want it to be significant. In other words, I don't want to reward one room at a time going nova and retreating. Maybe a scaling reward, where the more exploration performed before retreat results in increased rewards?

You might look at resting variants to combat the specific issue of nova'ing and retreating. My current thinking is 8-hour short rests and one-week long rests (can do downtime activities during long rest period), but I have not made a final decision. The idea here is that the dungeon restocks/respawns if you leave it sit for more than a day, so you end up giving up ground if you rest too much. Then I'll put time pressure on via specific events that happen after a set number of weeks. And, of course, the dungeon has wandering monsters.

You could specifically tie the XP reward to resting by giving out a set amount of XP minus number of short and/or long rests taken. You might find that this causes the players to favor one class or another. Whether that's an actual problem for you is a matter of taste. In similar threads in the past, I've recommended bonus XP past a certain threshold of challenges e.g. +10% bonus XP for every challenge overcome after the 5th this adventuring day. Whatever you choose, I recommend giving the mechanic a pithy name that encapsulates its purpose and frames it as boldness, heroism, or whatever best fits the campaign theme. Bonuses sell better than penalties, so I'd suggest designing it that way.

I am leaning toward the XP token idea because a) individual encounter XP is too fiddly, but b) milestone leveling is too arbitrary. Also I don't necessarily care what they do. I mean, if they spend all session searching and mapping and taking rubbings of old runes while talking about Bob the Fighter's camp habits, that deserves XP as much as killing monsters, evading traps or negotiating with hungry otyughs.

I don't know how much you use standard XP now, but it's really not fiddly at all in my view. It's simple math and, if you just award it after each challenge rather than wait till end of session, it's really not a problem in my experience.

Milestone XP could be okay as long as you're very specific about the things that are milestones. When many people say "milestone leveling" or the like, they mean just giving out levels by DM fiat or by story-based advancement (see DMG). But actually, milestone does use XP (again, see DMG) and is pegged to specific goals and challenges. So you could give a set amount of XP to, say, "Clear Level 7 of the Hellstair" or "Find the heart of the ruined city before the wraith-bell tolls." Then you could play around with objective-based stuff. Completing objectives that aren't "kill all monsters" could see your players trying to solve problems without cutting their way through them if they can imagine a path to that XP without fighting. Which is not to say combat is bad. We're just talking about what behavior will be incentivized.

Also I don't necessarily care what they do. I mean, if they spend all session searching and mapping and taking rubbings of old runes while talking about Bob the Fighter's camp habits, that deserves XP as much as killing monsters, evading traps or negotiating with hungry otyughs.

This might be somewhat controversial, but I think the DM should care, especially as it relates to the campaign theme. My personal philosophy is to strongly define my central theme/concept and then drive play toward that via content and mechanics and what is awarded XP and gold is a huge factor in that design. This creates a sense of what this campaign is centrally about for everyone at the table.

Generally speaking, I award XP for defeating creatures in combat and for turning hostile creatures friendly. If the players want to get some treasure, they have to engage in exploration challenges (i.e. treasure hunt). This encourages everyone to engage in all three pillars depending on their priorities. Sometimes, when they want to level up this session, they'll eschew treasure hunting in favor of efficient mass slaughter. Other times they'll want to pacify an area with diplomacy so they can get XP for it, plus use the area as an area of safe passage or rest. When they're broke though, it time to seek treasure.

If you'd like to see them doing stuff like creating maps, then you can just offer a standard gold piece bounty for source maps back in town. If the characters want to sell maps for gold, they have to stop being alert to danger while in the dungeon and not hold anything other than their cartographer's tools in their hands. If a lurking monster turns up, they're automatically surprised, unarmed, and possibly have a lower AC. That makes it a meaningful trade-off.

As to the matter of Inspiration and XP tokens, as a player, I'd probably not buy Inspiration with XP tokens. Leveling is almost always going to be the better choice to me, especially if I can earn Inspiration by playing to my traits, ideals, bonds, and flaws.

 

[Umbran]

I am leaning toward the XP token idea because a) individual encounter XP is too fiddly, but b) milestone leveling is too arbitrary.

For various meanings of "arbitrary". I am not sure how "complete one expedition" is less arbitrary than "complete a major effort" in game, but whatever.

Meaningful question: How often do you expect PCs to get killed? Is dying common, or is it an edge case? If you are only going to have one or two deaths in a campaign, you probably don't need the system for it. If it happens every couple of session, then perhaps you do.

This feeds into the XP for Inspiration exchange. Is that exchange done in downtime, or at runtime? Does the character even need to be conscious? Because "Spend a token, get three Inspiration, use one to gain advantage (and probably succeed) on a death save, and have two left over" looks like a sweet deal over "die and have to spend a token, and have nothing left over."

 

[Blue]

I don't see anything wrong with it, and would play with a DM running it. I likely wouldn't implement it myself but my goals are different (ad hoc milestone leveling focusing more on the arena of play - when the characters have done things to propel themselves to a larger stage, they level. (Even if that that was due to a failure - that has other consequences, and you can always learn a lot from failure.)

XP Tokens seem individualized per PC with the raise dead costs and new characters. Curious what the intention is if players miss a session due to real life in regards to that. As I've gotten older, I find that missing getting to see people and enjoy your hobby is already a big penalty, and assessing an in-game disincentive, while "realistic", does not add to player fun which is the ultimate goal.

Is there ever a reason NOT to spend XP Tokens as soon as you have enough for level?

I would lend my voice to what @5ekyu said - PC death is often a failure of the group, or at the very least not limited to that player. When you combine that some characters intentionally put themselves into a more dangerous positions for the good of the group (picture a front-line Fighter vs. an archer Fighter) and this penalty seems to be targeted poorly.

To add for myself, I've played with risk adverse groups, and anything that makes them more risk adverse - such as losing effectively two sessions of XP (one for the current session, plus retroactively losing a previous session to pay for it) - is contrary to the style of play I want to engender. I would urge reconsideration of the death penalty.

EDIT: Heck, I might even give a bunch of tokens or other atta-boys to someone who was willing to martyr their character to save the rest from a TPK.