[XPH]: Your take on Energy Missile augmentation

[Thanee]

20 isnt 'massive'? I would have to say that an order of magnitude is indeed massive

Heh. Not when compared to like 10, then it's just a factor of 2.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

::sighs:: This is very misleading thanee. It isnt useful in the way you say, especially with the way other parts of the game work.

Sure, it could be the way you say, or it could be simply that it is simply comparing it to one and the rest of the comparison is useless.

If you would like to do it this way then shadowevocation is an unbounded number of spells. Now, when comparing some number to infinity I know which one 'wins'.

The augmentation is gained because of lack of scaling. So, if you want to say that energy ball is 24 spells then I will say that fireball itself (which scales from 5d6 to 10d6) is as many spells and more. As I can use it in a 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th level slot and I can choose to have it be at 5d6, 6d6, 7d6, 8d6, 9d6 and 10d6. Now I have 42 different spells!

You will probably say this comparison isnt very valid, that is fine. It is just as valid as yours though.

Yeah, of course.

Note, that I have said, that the 24 is no useful number in itself.

But comparing with Fireball, Energy Ball is at least four times as much (the four energy types) plus it goes beyond the scaling cap, which makes it essentially the same as a higher level Fireball with a higher damage cap. I think it's not too unreasonable to call this twice as much, resulting in 8 times the number of spells known, so to say.

No, not exactly, each part is much weaker in power, breadth, and options.

Since each part is much more versitile, and has many more abilities, having the whole thing rolled into one doesnt seem overpowered at all.

Wait, I didn't and don't say that Astral Construct is overpowered.

It's fine, really.

It's just more than a single spell known. A lot more.

These powers let Psions go beyond their number of powers known when comparing with spells known of Wizards. They still won't have the same number in the end, of course, but they are also not so much lower.

This is a statement I made, because Stalker0 said Psions have oh so few powers/spells known. This is simply not true, they have a lot of powers/spells known.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Scion]

If you add them up in a similar way as spellcasters gain slots, you will get a pretty similar result in the end.

Sure, but then spells scale naturally.

So, the psion is 'way' behind.

Even then though, this isnt true. I said, 'sure' just to move on, but I must go back to it.

A nonspecialized wizard has the base equivalent of 324 effective pp + 4 cantrips vs the psions 343. So far the psion is ahead. Of course the psion is assumed to already be specialized to a pretty large degree, but we can ignore that for now I guess.

Next we look at bonus slots. At 19 casting stat the wizard has 16 bonus points, the psion gets 40.

Definately a bonus to the psion.

Going a bit higher to something actually reasonable for a 20th level character.. lets say 26.

Wizard gets 80 points as does the psion.

So that is about the breakoff point.

28 nets the wizard 106 vs the psions 90.

Which puts the wizard ahead.

For the unspecialized wizard having less than a 26 means that the psion is ahead in point value, having more means that the wizard pulls ahead.

So, for all practical purposes they are roughly equal in point totals I suppose.

But, the wizard gets free scaling. That means that looking at it from this perspective the psion is way behind.

If we make the wizard a specialist (to make it more comparable to the psion) then the wizard is very, very far ahead to begin with (having a total of 405 vs the psions 343). Not looking very good for the psion is it?

Spellcasters are very, very powerful. I don't think it is a good idea, after 3.5 removed a lot of the broken stuff

I dont use 3.5, I use 3.0 with the things I like from 3.5 thrown in. But it doesnt matter. Spellcasters are very powerful. But then so are noncasters.

In the late game properly made noncasters are actually much stronger than casters. That is true in every game I have been in. Casters have many more options to choose from per day, but the actual powerhouses are those strange noncasters.

That is just the thing though, there are some combos out there which are overpowered but they get houseruled out. Easy enough, but 3.5 broke more than it fixed. I have less houserules for 3.0 then I would have to use in 3.5, it is sad really.

Some people say that casters took over their game, to them I simply have to wonder what the dm did wrong. Both when I have dm'd and for other dm's I have been under there have never been any problems, except that on occasion casters are too weak.

Of course this could be because of a couple of houserules (of which there arent many), but if all it takes is just a couple of very simple things to push them from 'top of the heap' to 'I wish I could do something besides buff' then obviously the system as a whole needs to be looked at.

The newest incarnation of psions move forward in a few ways, and backwards in others. Most of the backwards has to do simply with 3.5 isms which are horrible.


So, as for the energy power, as is the topic, it is fine once the ability to target attended objects is taken out. I have shown this useing powers, I have shown this useing spells, and, in another thread, I showed it useing a noncaster.

There is nothing left to compare it with. It is balanced with the system, that is good enough for me.

 

[Scion]

But comparing with Fireball, Energy Ball is at least four times as much

My total was 42, yours was 24. Fireball is almost twice as many spells

This is a statement I made, because Stalker0 said Psions have oh so few powers/spells known. This is simply not true, they have a lot of powers/spells known.

Wizards can have as many as the dm's give them.

psions have a total of 36 powers known. However, no cantrips. So some of those will be taken over by spells that the other caster types take for granted.

Also, some are worth only fractions of a spell. It takes several powers to equal the single spell.

Either way, the knife would cut both ways.

I am just trying to put both sides into focus, as you are simply stating the one side

 

[Thanee]

My total was 42, yours was 24. Fireball is almost twice as many spells

Actually those 42 are always the same "spell" in different scaling levels. No difference like in the 8 versions of Energy Ball I came down to (each of those 8 include that, which you label with that marvellous 42 thanks to augmentation).

But that's really not very important.

I am just trying to put both sides into focus, as you are simply stating the one side

Now this is SO not true!

I have shown this useing powers, I have shown this useing spells, and, in another thread, I showed it useing a noncaster.

Yeah, you made quite a few comparisons, each time neglecting what I have explained above, why augmentation costs are no factor in such comparison, tho. Each time, you use the augmentation costs, seperated from the whole (that is ignoring the advantage you gain through this cost as explained above), to come to the conclusion, that Energy Missile is fine.

Sure, but then spells scale naturally.

And again, you state stuff that doesn't belong there.

Yes, of course spells scale, and powers can be augmented.
How was it with stating just one side, hmm?

Bye
Thanee

 

[Scion]

Now this is SO not true!

You know it is you cant fool me!

Yeah, you made quite a few comparisons, each time neglecting what I have explained above, why augmentation costs are no factor in such comparison, tho. Each time, you use augmentation costs to come to the conclusion, that Energy Missile is fine.

I only use augmentation to compare it with higher level spells/powers. My comparisons are all sound.

Whatever total cost you wind up paying for it is the level of spell/power you must compare it to. Simple as that.

When comparing to scaling spells to augmentable powers the augmentation just isnt a factor. Just because the power can be made to be much more powerful by dumping points into it means nothing. Scaling can be taken at any point, but taking it at several places, as I have done, makes more sense than comparing it at its lowest point.

 

[Thanee]

Well, my answer is already written above...

Bye
Thanee

 

[Darklone]

Energy Ball is a 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th level power, which can be used in four different ways (fire, cold, lightning, sonic). That's 24 spells.

Wasn't acid in there as well?

 

[zorlag]

Wasn't acid in there as well?

No, Acid damage is reserved for Psychometabolic powers.

Z.

 

[Staffan]

I'm considering changing Energy Missile in one of two ways:

1. Just like Magic Missile, you don't get full damage against each target. You have to split the dice. So a 10 PP Energy missile could either do 10d6 against one target, or something like 4d6 against one and 6d6 against another.

2. Change the default target to "one target" and allow augmentation to increase the number of targets by 1 per PP (still keeping the 15 ft limitation, but possibly not increasing DC for target augmentation). So a 10 PP Energy Missile could either do 10d6 on one target, 9d6 on two, and so on until you get to 6d6 on five. I think one PP per extra target is OK, because for two PP you could instead use Energy Cone and do full damage to folks nearby, and for four more PP you could use Energy Ball instead.