D&D 5E yes, this again: Fighters need more non-combat options

[Jefe Bergenstein]

It's like you didn't even read what I said...

So what you're saying is fighters can't have nice things, narrative control, etc because we need a class for those that can't be bothered to be particularly engaged. If you want those (ie, fun stuff), play a caster. I read it, I disagree. Why does the fighter have to be the dumb class or why can't we have a complex fighting type? Why can't wizards be the magic missile spammer noob class? I mean, other than some pathetic nerd revenge with making the "jock" class the subpar dummy option.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Wiseblood]

The fighter class is fine. The player built a character that is dysfunctional for your campaign or perhaps just for this session.

If you have a campaign about courtly intrigue dumping charisma is a bad idea.

If you have an under dark campaign planned having a character designed as a horseman or a falconer is a swift way to feel gimped.

Some jobs in D&D are just more viable in different campaigns. I’m not blaming anyone here that’s just how things shake out sometimes.

 

[DEFCON 1]

If you have a problem with a particular set of rules in the game and then come up with your own solution to possibly fix it, good on you! Try it out, hope it works well for you!

You're doing a lot better than the people who have a problem with a particular set of rules and do nothing but continually complain about it, under the idea that "this is what I'm paying WotC for!".

 

[5ekyu]

I'm hesitant to accept that most people don't use feats - I know someone from Wizards said it without showing their sources but I've never seen a game run without using them. I'll address it, but I don't think it's "most people", or even a majority.

Fighters get extra ASI/feats - that's exactly my point. They can "keep up with the Jones" in terms of ASI/feat usage as still have a whole set of ASI/feats for use for other improvement. I think you'd find that people would rate the fighter differently if you took away all the extra ASIs. It's like ignoring the difference between a d12 HD and d6 because "everyone gets HPs". It adds up over time. If the player of a fighter choses to use those extra feats only on the combat pillar of play that's not a lack in the class.

Now, if there are feats there are many obvious options. But even without feats, those extra ASI means that fighters can be better at ability checks then anyone not focused. As a matter of fact, in featless games with little else to spend those ASI on, they are pretty much forced to do so. They can have a better CHR except those who have it as a casting stat. They can have a better INT except for those that have a casting stat. They can have a better WIS except for those who use it as a casting stat. Whatever they want to focus on on, plus being top tier DEX or STR natively. So in a game without feats, they still have ability to improve ability checks. +1 to 3-5 skills each time they do so is not an inconsiderable advantage.

"I'm hesitant to accept that most people don't use feats - I know someone from Wizards said it without showing their sources but I've never seen a game run without using them. I'll address it, but I don't think it's "most people", or even a majority."

It's a comment that's very dependent on the context.

Was it "most tables dont allow feats?"
Was it "most players dont use feats"?
Was it "most campaigns dont allow feats"?

Its easy to see that **it could be** that most pick-ups, one-shots and campaigns that dont get beyond say 7th level see a minority of players choosing feats over ASI (or not allowed to) and that those make up enough of a block to make it true.

It could be that almost every fighter uses feats but still not a majority of all players.

Like most aggregates you need to know the details to know how applicable it is to your experiences.

From a real world example, some countries show diabetes as a number one killer - but it's because they sub-divide other major causes (heart disease and cancer) into their sub-types while other countries aggregate differently and diabetes may be 4th - even tho the results are not really that different if presented with same process.

 

[ad_hoc]

I think people often forget about the extra ASIs that the Fighter gets. One of them is at 6th level which is plenty of time left in the campaign to make good use of it.

Fighters also have a lot of room for ability allocation. With high AC they don't even need a high Con if they want to put stats elsewhere.

 

[Satyrn]

Ahem.

I just realized that nobody really commented on the usefulness of the OP's proposal. I don't see it helping his player.

Remarkable Athlete is just a tiny bonus to physical checks the fighter's already probably got covered well enough, and that's only for the skills he's not Proficiency with. He's already got Athletics I'm betting, and in my experience that's the most used physical check.

And then the battle master's feature is just oh so meh to me. I just don't see it helping the player's fun at all.
.

 

[GlassJaw]

Ahem.

I just realized that nobody really commented on the usefulness of the OP's proposal. I don't see it helping his player.

Remarkable Athlete is just a tiny bonus to physical checks the fighter's already probably got covered well enough, and that's only for the skills he's not Proficiency with. He's already got Athletics I'm betting, and in my experience that's the most used physical check.

And then the battle master's feature is just oh so meh to me. I just don't see it helping the player's fun at all.

Overall I agree. It was a quick idea I had. I think it's an interesting idea but definitely not the "solution". It has served as a catalyst for discussion though!

 

[Mistwell]

Right, I recognized feats earlier in the thread as a feature that helps, but the fact is most players don’t use them.

I have no idea where you are getting this "fact" from, but I don't think it's a player-oriented question, but a fighter-oriented one. Do most players of FIGHTERS use feats? I suspect they do.

If instead of gaining an ASI at levels 6 and 14 they instead offerred this power, would it change things because the optics change?

Adroit Specialization. At 6th level you gain one Adroit Specialization. You gain a second one at level 14. When you gain an Adroit Specialization, choose one from the list below:
1) You gain proficiency in any combination of three skills or tools of your choice.
2) You gain one skill expertise, one skill proficiency, one language proficiency, and one tool proficiency.
3) You gain +1 Charisma, advantage on Charisma (Deception and Performance) checks when trying to pass yourself off as a different person, and can mimic any speech or sound you've heard for at least one minute. A successful Wisdom (Insight) check contested by your Charisma (Deception) check allows a listener to determine that the effect is faked.
4) Using a healer’s kit to stabilize a dying creature also graints them 1 hit point. You may also spend an action and a use of a healer’s kit to tend to a creature and restore 1d6 + 4 hit points + hit points equal to the targets HD. They can’t regain hit points from this feat again until it finishes a short or long rest.
5) You gain +1 Intelligence, always know which way is north, the number of hours left before the next sunrise or sunset, and can accurately recall anything you have seen or heard within the past month.
6) You gain +1 Intelligence, learn three languages, and can ably create written ciphers which otthers can’t decipher unless you teach them it, or they succeed on an Intelligence check (DC equal to your Intelligence score + your proficiency bonus), or they use magic to decipher it.
7) You gain +1 Intelligence, and if you can see a creature’s mouth while it is speaking a language you understand, you can interpret what it’s saying by reading its lips. You also have a +5 bonus to your passive Wisdom (Perception) and passive Intelligence (Investigation) scores.

 

[Satyrn]

I have no idea where you are getting this "fact" from, but I don't think it's a player-oriented question, but a fighter-oriented one. Do most players of FIGHTERS use feats? I suspect they do.

If instead of gaining an ASI at levels 6 and 14 they instead offerred this power, would it change things because the optics change?

Adroit Specialization. At 6th level you gain one Adroit Specialization. You gain a second one at level 14. When you gain an Adroit Specialization, choose one from the list below:
1) You gain proficiency in any combination of three skills or tools of your choice.
2) You gain one skill expertise, one skill proficiency, one language proficiency, and one tool proficiency.
3) You gain +1 Charisma, advantage on Charisma (Deception and Performance) checks when trying to pass yourself off as a different person, and can mimic any speech or sound you've heard for at least one minute. A successful Wisdom (Insight) check contested by your Charisma (Deception) check allows a listener to determine that the effect is faked.
4) Using a healer’s kit to stabilize a dying creature also graints them 1 hit point. You may also spend an action and a use of a healer’s kit to tend to a creature and restore 1d6 + 4 hit points + hit points equal to the targets HD. They can’t regain hit points from this feat again until it finishes a short or long rest.
5) You gain +1 Intelligence, always know which way is north, the number of hours left before the next sunrise or sunset, and can accurately recall anything you have seen or heard within the past month.
6) You gain +1 Intelligence, learn three languages, and can ably create written ciphers which otthers can’t decipher unless you teach them it, or they succeed on an Intelligence check (DC equal to your Intelligence score + your proficiency bonus), or they use magic to decipher it.
7) You gain +1 Intelligence, and if you can see a creature’s mouth while it is speaking a language you understand, you can interpret what it’s saying by reading its lips. You also have a +5 bonus to your passive Wisdom (Perception) and passive Intelligence (Investigation) scores.

[MENTION=22103]GlassJaw[/MENTION], giving your player's fighter this feature might be what you ought to do. But instead of replacing the ASIs at 6th and 14th as Mistwell writes, just give it to him at 7th level instead of (or on top of if you'd prefer) his subclass feature.

Force your player to take a non-combat feat, without taking away his combat feats (I'm assuming he's been choosing feats to optimise for combat otherwise he probably wouldn't be having this problem in the first place).