Yet another "4.0 impressions" thread

[SSquirrel]

- You can't be evil. I appreciate how you don't want a bunch of kids or newbies picking this up and going, "heh, I wanna be the bad guy!" But there are reasonable adults out there who want to play a reasonably adult game. Sometimes this involves bending morality or breaking it altogether. I'm sure we'll get supplements that cover this stuff (the demand is there), but I'm not sure if I appreciate being told "don't do this." Especially next to "but your imagination is the only limit!"

"Unless your DM is running a campaign in which all the characters are evil or chaotic evil,"

In which case, he will say go for it and here's the pages from the DMG w/evil god info. The DM has always been able to say no evil before and past versions of D&D have also recommended being heroic and not playing bad guys. I don't really see a change here, except the evil gods are in the DMG.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

"Unless your DM is running a campaign in which all the characters are evil or chaotic evil,"

In which case, he will say go for it and here's the pages from the DMG w/evil god info. The DM has always been able to say no evil before and past versions of D&D have also recommended being heroic and not playing bad guys. I don't really see a change here, except the evil gods are in the DMG.

I think the issue is, past games have advised against it but provided rules, while 4e flat out stats in the Player's Handbook "You can't do it unless the DM decides to allow it." It then proceeds to give no rules for it.

 

[ironvyper]

Given that there's a metric ton of reading in every MMO, I think aiming at that audience is just fine.

The below-reading-standards demographic, while they are online, aren't typically the voracious online consumers that most MMO players are. (Although the illiterates and subliterates -- and I don't know of a less pejorative term that we can use, when talking about people who are testing so poorly -- certainly do stand out there, as they do everywhere they appear online.) Anecdotal evidence here and in other RPG forums also suggests that RPG games have traditionally appealed to folks with above average reading levels, and that gamers who didn't start off that way were dragged into higher reading levels by EGG and his verbose counterparts.

And, for the record, every time I log onto WoW now, someone brings up 4E, either for good or for ill, in guild chat. WotC has certainly gotten the attention of a lot of online gamers, many of whom, at least in my guild, haven't played D&D since Reagan was president. That's something any business would be pleased to accomplish.

I wonder though if it was gaming that made them smarter or if its just that people who are more cerabral are more attracted to gaming. The older incarnations, even the 3xs came out in a world where MMO's were either non existant or just starting up. I dont think theres really any way to know how that demographic is gonna respond to being asked to give up thier conveniance of in-home on thier own time gaming with little to no intelligence or civility required, and instead pick up a book hundreds of pages long and read it then work around several other peoples schedules and actually behave like a decent person for a few hours at someones house.

Btw, i'm not into the the MMO's so i have to ask, are the WoW people mentioning it in a good way or a bad one?

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I wonder though if it was gaming that made them smarter or if its just that people who are more cerabral are more attracted to gaming.

That's a happy myth that gamers like to tell each other: "Oh, we're all the really SMART kids. OK, some of us have terrible grades and a lot of us have terrible jobs, but we're secretly super-smart, which is why we like gaming."

Gamers are pretty much just people. It's been a while since the big ENWorld mega-polls were active, but the age range, jobs, and so on were all very ordinary, not skewing any particular direction.

(For instance, you have a lot of spelling errors for someone who's theoretically more cerebral. We're all just folks.)

The older incarnations, even the 3xs came out in a world where MMO's were either non existant or just starting up. I dont think theres really any way to know how that demographic is gonna respond to being asked to give up thier conveniance of in-home on thier own time gaming with little to no intelligence or civility required

Given how many people at ENWorld are practically accessing the Internet on electric typewriters and get befuddled at even basic computer tasks -- check the non-gaming forums here some time to see the questions and resulting threads -- whereas MMOs tend to be played on more advanced computers, requiring manual upgrades, I'm not sure there's a call to take a shot at the intelligence of MMO players. (And remember, there's 12 million of them playing WoW and a million or so playing Age of Conan. That's a big broad brush you're waving around with all that tar on it.)

In addition, I'll put up, say, the Onyxia fight against any dragon in any published adventure, electronic or paper, released prior to World of Warcraft coming out. Succeeding at a difficult challenge in an MMO doesn't require any less intelligence than being a good D&D player and also requires additional skills (unless you routinely play D&D with 40 people at the table -- 72 for EverQuest I).

and instead pick up a book hundreds of pages long and read it then work around several other peoples schedules and actually behave like a decent person for a few hours at someones house.

"Decent person" like "not insulting millions of people, including lots of ENWorld users, just because they play something that I don't?"

Btw, i'm not into the the MMO's so i have to ask, are the WoW people mentioning it in a good way or a bad one?

Both. A LOT of people have picked it up to see what's going on. At one MMO site I frequent, people have already started up an online game. I run an online (3E) game here with other people I know from MMOs as well.

Incidentally, one thing about 4E that people have been spot-on about: A LOT of WoW players are interested in the virtual tabletop. It would behoove WotC to get it done.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I think the issue is, past games have advised against it but provided rules, while 4e flat out stats in the Player's Handbook "You can't do it unless the DM decides to allow it." It then proceeds to give no rules for it.

What rules are you looking for? The PHB has all the stuff about classes and the DMG has the evil god details.

Barring the arrival of the 4E assassin and necromancer, it looks like you're good to go to me.

 

[SSquirrel]

Not that assassins and necromancers NEED to be evil. But yes, the point is that since it is the DMs call in the end, the rules are in the DMG. So yes there are rules for it, talk to your friendly local DM

 

[Mokona]

Depending on your state only between 18% and 34% of 13 year olds tested at or above the proficient level of reading.

So while it might be marketed to try to appeal to middle school kids who enjoy WoW type of games, very few of them are capable of actually reading and understanding it...... makes you wonder if this was really a good decision or not.

Checking the U.S. Census Bureau there are 10.4 million boys between the age of 10 and 14. So that indicates around 1.9 million to 3.5 million potential customers who are fully capable of reading 4th edition rules (as of today; this number grows each year as current players age and continue playing while 9 year olds are graduating in to the 10-14 demographic each year).

Above, I've excluded 33 year olds like myself who buy 4th edition or the ladies who play D&D. If Wizards of the Coast sells even a modest fraction of Player's Handbooks to those 1.9-3.5 million capable readers then Hasbro made a "really good decision".

I don't think the numbers support the notion that there are "very few" kids capable of reading and understanding 4th edition.

Again, Wizards has way more possible customers than the numbers above because of the addition of those older than 14 or of the female sex. Also, poor readers can be taught to play by their friends without having the plow through the rules. I managed to play AD&D 1st edition when I was 10 and those rules made no sense at all. Today's 10 year olds will muddle through even if they don't play right...

 

[shinmizu]

Given that there's a metric ton of reading in every MMO, I think aiming at that audience is just fine.

I beg to differ. There's a metric ton of text in every MMO, but very little reading. For instance, in WoW, the quest text was blindingly obvious in stating what had to be done and where in 90% or more of the quests, but people were constantly asking in chat channels (*shudders at Barrens chat*) where to find certain mobs, items, etc.

"What's the quest text say?"

"lol i didnt red it lol"

Btw, i'm not into the the MMO's so i have to ask, are the WoW people mentioning it in a good way or a bad one?

Well, most of the gamers in my guild (Pia Presidium--RP guild on Cenarion Circle) flat out refuse to play it. Amusingly, a few of them contend that it's too much like WoW. I know of at least two that are going with Castles & Crusades instead. Not sure of the rest.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

(Pia Presidium--RP guild on Cenarion Circle)

I haven't talked to Gentyl in quite some time, how's she doing these days?

(Hah!)

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I beg to differ. There's a metric ton of text in every MMO, but very little reading. For instance, in WoW, the quest text was blindingly obvious in stating what had to be done and where in 90% or more of the quests, but people were constantly asking in chat channels (*shudders at Barrens chat*) where to find certain mobs, items, etc.

"What's the quest text say?"

"lol i didnt red it lol"

General chat -- in any MMO -- is the equivalent of high school detention. They are not the best and brightest, nor even typical of the server.

In WoW, join General and then click on your Chat tab to see how many people are in the channel. If you're playing Alliance, you are online with thousands of people at the same time. And almost none of them are in General. That's a small and non-representative sample.

Well, most of the gamers in my guild (Pia Presidium--RP guild on Cenarion Circle) flat out refuse to play it. Amusingly, a few of them contend that it's too much like WoW. I know of at least two that are going with Castles & Crusades instead. Not sure of the rest.

I'm on Silver Hand, myself. Opening day RP server, raar.