Yet another "4.0 impressions" thread

[Mathew_Freeman]

I think the issue is, past games have advised against it but provided rules, while 4e flat out stats in the Player's Handbook "You can't do it unless the DM decides to allow it." It then proceeds to give no rules for it.

What rules would you like? Seriously, I'm interested - what rules do you feel you need to have to play an evil character?

 

[ProfessorCirno]

What rules would you like? Seriously, I'm interested - what rules do you feel you need to have to play an evil character?

To start? Feats for priests of evil gods in the PHB (For that note, I've admittedly not read the DMG too much, but I don't THINK I saw them in there, either)

 

[evilbob]

Re: the whole evil discussion

Just to clarify since sometimes exaggeration is a bad idea for forums: certainly you don't "have" to be good, and it is not impossible to be evil. Even the MM has rules for variant PC races. However, 4.0 clearly says that you -should- play a non-evil character, and you are nudged in that direction on multiple occasions. Clearly you still can, but the emphasis on not doing that is what I found to be interesting (again: not good, not bad). (I mean 2 of the PrCs from the 3.5 DMG were for evil characters - quite a difference now.)


Also, I left something out of my original list:

Neither good nor bad, but different:
- Big monsters don't do much. I can appreciate that a narrow range of options makes a DM's life easier and tactics more obvious, and when you're running 4 different types of creatures I doubt it's even noticeable. But I wonder if big, powerful monsters with hundreds of HP will seem quite as cool after round 15 of the same 3 things. In particular, iconic super-bosses like balors, pit fiends, and the terrasque (sp?) seemed much more like huge bags of HP than terrifying foes. Again, I will reserve my opinion for when I've seen it in play, but I'm worried. (This also cuts down on their plot/RP options - unless, again, you just forge a new path and make it all up yourself. How do balors ever leave their own plane? I guess it's up to me [or future supplements]!)

 

[Cadfan]

- Skill checks scale with your level. I'm not sure why they just didn't say, "All skill checks are a 50/50 chance. Go for it." I don't understand why swinging from a chandelier when I am a level 2 character has a DC of 13, but then if I am a level 15 character it has a DC of 22. Why did the same task get harder? I know you're trying to match skill challenges to the level of the player, and that's great - but honestly, I think more static DCs are in order. There should be some things you just can't do at heroic tier and some things you can easily do at epic tier. Don't just make the DC harder because I leveled up.

DCs don't go up just because you leveled up. What you're thinking of is probably the table in the DMG for ad hoc rulings on things for which there is no objective skill DC. It scales by level as a feature- the idea is that you estimate how hard it ought to be for a character of that level to succeed at a task, then pull the DC off of the chart. Its a convenient reference page and nothing more.

Other comments, focusing on things I disagreed with, because "I totally agree!" isn't very fun conversation:

-I'm cool with art being cleaned up for the kids, because the books weren't published just for me. I don't lose out on anything important when there aren't any bare breasts in the PHB, and Little Timmy gains something when his mom doesn't take his books away.

-Regarding the number of character classes, its depth over breadth. You only have three practical options for primary melee weapons for your rogues- dagger, shortsword, katar, rapier. But you have so many different ways to use those weapons.

-Some fights against solos take a very long time. It seems like monsters who actually stand and fight you aren't a problem, but solo monsters that run away, hide, and attack with hit and run tactics (solo lurkers) seem to be tough to kill in a reasonable number of rounds. Maybe more hit points should have been shaved to account for the hit and run advantages.

-Its true that if you want monsters to match their mythical base, you'll have to write in the rules yourself. I'm ok with this though, because the mythical base really isn't modern fantasy. In modern fantasy a vampire lord might be a huge guy in plate armor with a greatsword commanding an undead legion, and you defeat him in martial combat. In fantasy fighting a vampire lord involves hiding behind a holy symbol until the vampire goes away, getting slaughtered if you haven't got a holy symbol, and stabbing the vampire to death in his sleep. I'd rather the game follow the first paradigm in the default rules.

-There aren't just four classes. They play genuinely differently. A fey pact warlock zipping around cursing people so that she can do teleportation hit and run attacks as her allies cut down her foes is very different tactically from an infernal pact warlock getting up close and personal and is very different from a star pact warlock acting like a sniper, and that's just in one class. They may all be strikers, but you will face different tactical issues with each one, and will end up playing each one in a different manner.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Actually, adults find decent art attractive. Nudity, revealing attire, blood, and gore do not make you an adult though we restrict those things (generally) to adults. [Insert "all Corvettes are Cars but not all Cars are Corvettes reference here.] I would like my demons to be tastefully attired if they're effectively human looking or at least not wearing a chain as a thong or hiding their privates behind strategically place ponytails.

Perhaps Wizards of the Coast pays attention to the fact that G and PG rated movies consistently outsell PG-13 and R rated movies (too bad Hollywood is barely noticing this fact).

I first played Dungeons & Dragons when I was 10 years old. As far as I can tell the majority of D&D customers on ENWorld also started playing before their 13th birthday. So modest art in the Core Rules seems appropriate and I daresay that the art in 4th edition is PG given the amount of violence.

"What good is all the violence in the world, unless it is tempered with limitless sex." -Sexicutioner


I think that the singular focus on violence in 4E is worse than worrying about a little cartoon art nudity. It can be argued that every edition has been about killing things and taking thier stuff of course but the amount of space devoted to this in 4E (almost all) leaves prior editions in the dust. The game can be whatever the DM and players make of it. The hyper violent approach seems to be the one style WOTC wants to push down everyone's throats. Some people might like info in the MM that doesn't assume that the creature will be dead in XX rounds. I started playing this game at age 10 and appreciated that the artwork featured some "adult" images. I saw Conan the Barbarian (rated R) at age 12 and loved it. The (PG13) sequel just wasn't up to scratch. A nekkid succubus never hurt anyone...........ok maybe but no more than a clothed one.

 

[evilbob]

Re: nudity
Like I said, it's not good, but it's not bad. I understand why they did it, but I'm ready for the supplement that caters to adult audiences, please.

Re: making up your own rules
It still seems a bit weird, what with 3.5 trying to codify everything. And the whole "make it up" is not really even implied - I am just assuming that's the case. They never really give an example of what to do if you want your demons to planeshift, or the vampire to have a permanent thrall. Still, there's the possibility that future rules will go more into this stuff and I'm just being paranoid about it.

Re: 4 classes
I agree that classes play tactically differently, but there are still just 4 fundamental roles along with 4 types of powers to achieve those roles (melee, ranged, close, area). Some classes mix it up, and some throw in a few bonus movement options for flavor, but you're still talking about a variation on a very narrow theme. It's the natural result of a simplified core rule set: your options are limited. (Except by your imagination!!! As long as you use these minis and maps and books. ...Ok that was a bit snarky, sorry.)

 

[shinmizu]

I haven't talked to Gentyl in quite some time, how's she doing these days?

She was mostly in absentia last I paid much attention (It's been maybe two months since I've spent more than five or ten minutes in WoW at a time). Bebus and a few other guild officers went to Age of Conan for a bit, but I think Gentyl's just busy with life. (Writing, working, etc.)

(Hah!)

Hah, indeed.

 

[evilbob]

Some of the wording in part 7 of the GSL make me a little more worried about whether or not we will eventually ever get "adult" content. It's clear they do not want to ever go R rated, but are we even going to get PG-13? And how will this affect options for mature character themes (i.e. not good)?

Again, not that it is required to have a good time, (and not that you can't just add it in anyway,) but I've got to think their main audience is the 25-35 crowd, as opposed to 14-18.

 

[Scribble]

Some of the wording in part 7 of the GSL make me a little more worried about whether or not we will eventually ever get "adult" content. It's clear they do not want to ever go R rated, but are we even going to get PG-13? And how will this affect options for mature character themes (i.e. not good)?

Again, not that it is required to have a good time, (and not that you can't just add it in anyway,) but I've got to think their main audience is the 25-35 crowd, as opposed to 14-18.

I don't think it will do too much... I think for "mature" or evil, say friday the 13th would be cool, but Hostel would not.

I think the word excessive is telling.

Sacrifice = ok. Describing in excruciating detail every moment of the sacrifice, every little body fluid that drips out, and what your evil character can sexualy do with that fluid... not ok...

 

[SSquirrel]

I'm on Silver Hand, myself. Opening day RP server, raar.

Whisperwind since day 1. made a guild w/a bunch of friends from ISCABBS. Close to 4 years later we're still there.

Evil feats>They have stumps for legs. No feats in the DMG. The DMG does put it forth as pretty much the villains will be evil, and obviously they spend their feats on other stuff