D&D 5E You and What Army?

[Blue]

Having played a summon-focused druid in 3.5, one feeling around the table was that my turns took longer than others because I had to work through multiple creatures. Now, each was individually quicker than a PC because it was simpler, but it was still delaying everyone else. So regardless of balance issues, if not everyone has companions then some player will feel short-changed. (And pointing out that they COULD with different feats like leadership have some isn't helpful).

So it was a social issue, not just a balance issue.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Was this a problem in old-school D&D with armies of hirelings and henchmen?

It was kind of a game in itself at higher levels. I dont know I would say it became a problem (though some groups may have had issues with it). It certainly allowed for different solutions and types of scenarios.

 

[Bedrockgames]

My 3rd ed campaign ground to halt at about 12th level because of the combined effects of monster summoning wizard and animal summoning druid. The problem was both at the table where it took ages for the casters rounds to resolve and in game with 3 or 4 summoned creatures. They were also useful with traps etc.

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In 3E, i found it was largely because of all the other things spellcasters were doing in that edition (i may not have minded the summoned creatures if i were not also dealing with things like endless cleric bluffs, wild shaped druids with crazy feats (and buffs), etc. it seemed to be the combined effect of it all that strained the system at times (eventually I was okay with it, but when i first realized what could be done with the system, it genuinely took me off guard).

 

[Starfox]

Having GMed a druid through Savage Tide, level 1-20, I saw plenty of summoning and buffing. But my players were very organized and on top of things. They also used the same summoned creatures over and over. Mainly Dire Tigers and Earth Elementals (because of the their ability to stand within walls, and thus not clutter the battlefield). Dire Tigers became huge when buffed, and thus could coexist with other Medium-size creatures in 3.5.

But yeah, I can see how it would be a problem. Especially if multiple players do it.

 

[Jester David]

While I was not a fan of 4e's summons being daily powers or identical to other attack spells their action management worked. You spent your standard action to command and direct them. So you still only got or action. Although most also got their own reaction.

This might be a good way to handle summons or animal companions.

For larger conjured armies and followers the simplified combat systems they've been testing will be handy.

 

[Celebrim]

You underestimate the power of these creatures. Once, my party was having a very difficult time fighting a devil. My wizard summoned a celestial dire tiger, and it killed the devil in one round.

Dire Tiger is on the 8th level list, meaning you had to be 15th level to summon it. What sort of devil where you fighting that a party of 15th level characters was outshown by a CR 8 monster? What sort of Devil that challenges a 15th level party goes down in one round to summoned CR 8 creature?

Everyone at the table gasped at how easily it took that devil down.

I'm a bit baffled to. Let's say its a CR 16 Horned Devil, with 172 hit points and an armor class of 35 plus it has DR 10/good AND silver, meaning that the celestial dire tiger can't overcome DR. How in the heck is a dire tiger doing anything more than scratching such a foe? It's average expected damage per round is in the single digits. It's a minor irritation to a Horned Devil, which frankly ought to be a minor irritation to 15th level characters.

Another time, I animated a hill giant skeleton, and just for fun we had it duel our 10th level fighter. The skeleton won.

Huh?? How? A Hill Giant Skeleton has a BAB of +6, gets -1 to hit for being large, and only has like a +6 bonus from Strength. So its only +11 to hit. I'd expect a 10th level fighter to have at least a 25 AC, so the skeleton needs like a 14 or better to hit. Fighting defensively drops that to a 16 or better to hit, and that's assuming the fighter hasn't taken Combat Expertise or something of the sort which would make this totally one sided. How in the world is a 10th level fighter so poorly equipped and how is it's player so tactically deficient that they can't defeat a CR 6 monster? Heck, my current PC party is 6th level, in a low magic world with below average magic resources, and at least two members of the party (the Hobgoblin fighter and the human 'Paladin') could possibly solo a Hill Giant Skeleton.

When I created a stone golem, the party fighter really started to wonder what purpose he even served.

Granted, if you play RAW, fighters have a lot of trouble competing with full spellcasters starting around 11th level. Still, a 15th level fighter also ought to be able to solo a Stone Golem which, with its only +18 bonus to hit, is going to have problems damaging your average CR 15+ foe. But seriously, even granting that 15th level Wizard is much more powerful than 15th level Fighter, the examples you are citing are just a bit .... off.

 

[BriarMonkey]

At my tables, I've never seen this issue.

In 3e, hardly anyone used summoning due to it's limited duration - and that it took a full round to get the spell off. With Metamagic, it was far easier to just do outright damage. Summons were more used for utility than combat.

Too, with Leadership - the followers and cohorts were normally off doing things on behalf of the PC while the PC was too busy being an adventurer.

I didn't run any evil campaigns, so Animate Dead was not an issue either.

Any golems were typically used for protecting home base; and rarely did I see a familiar in use due to their limited durability.

Back in 1e, henchmen and hirelings were much more impacted by your Charisma, so again, not a lot of play within the adventuring arena - more in castle maintenance or caring for camp.

I think, just like many of the other situational issues, that this is very much an issue that depends on the group and campaign. Give us the ability to do these things - and if it's a problem, houserule it.

 

[Falling Icicle]

Dire Tiger is on the 8th level list, meaning you had to be 15th level to summon it. What sort of devil where you fighting that a party of 15th level characters was outshown by a CR 8 monster? What sort of Devil that challenges a 15th level party goes down in one round to summoned CR 8 creature?

If memory serves, it was a Glabrezu. As for what kind of dire tiger can bring down one of those in a single turn? A celestial dire tiger, thanks to Smite Evil (which is extremely powerful in Pathfinder).

I'm a bit baffled to. Let's say its a CR 16 Horned Devil, with 172 hit points and an armor class of 35 plus it has DR 10/good AND silver, meaning that the celestial dire tiger can't overcome DR. How in the heck is a dire tiger doing anything more than scratching such a foe? It's average expected damage per round is in the single digits. It's a minor irritation to a Horned Devil, which frankly ought to be a minor irritation to 15th level characters.

In Pathfinder, Smite Evil lets you bypass an evil creature's damage reduction, no matter what type of weapon you're using. It also adds +level or HD damage to every single attack, and dire tigers with rake get a lot of attacks!

Huh?? How? A Hill Giant Skeleton has a BAB of +6, gets -1 to hit for being large, and only has like a +6 bonus from Strength. So its only +11 to hit. I'd expect a 10th level fighter to have at least a 25 AC, so the skeleton needs like a 14 or better to hit. Fighting defensively drops that to a 16 or better to hit, and that's assuming the fighter hasn't taken Combat Expertise or something of the sort which would make this totally one sided. How in the world is a 10th level fighter so poorly equipped and how is it's player so tactically deficient that they can't defeat a CR 6 monster? Heck, my current PC party is 6th level, in a low magic world with below average magic resources, and at least two members of the party (the Hobgoblin fighter and the human 'Paladin') could possibly solo a Hill Giant Skeleton.

I'm not lying. Skeletons have DR, and our fighter didn't have a bludgeoning weapon. So that took off like 5 damage every hit, which adds up. Second, there's nothing preventing a character from equipping his animated servants with magic items, which I did. I didn't give it anything too fancy, just a magic weapon and some decent armor. I also had the corpse crafter feat which gives it +4 Strength and +2 hit points per HD. And as for fighting defensively or using Combat Expertise, our fighter didn't do either. He wasn't built that way. I also think I was misremembering what level we were. The more I think about it, I believe we were around 8th level, rather than 10th. It was also the DR and corpse crafter that made the difference. Had the fighter been using a bludgeoning weapon and I not had that feat, he would have won. Still, it surprised me that it was even a contest.

 

[pming]

Hiya.

If I was able to write the rules for 5e's summoning, I'd have the "duration" be "Special". A summoned creature would have a short duration without any "purpose", but it could be longer if the "purpose" took longer.

In my RPG (not campaign...actual RPG system I've been writing), spells are given 'duration's' listed as time frames such as "Minutes", "Hours", "Days". There is a maximum time they will be in effect, or until their purpose is fulfilled. For example, a spell that allows the caster and those included to walk on water has a duration of, say, "Minutes". The caster casts the spell and everyone starts to walk across the big lake, which should take about 5 minutes. The PC's get to the other side, step on land, and seconds later the spell ends. Now go back...lets say at the half way mark they are attacked by some nasty lake creature. They spend a few minutes fighting it. Successful, they carry on. They get to the other side, step on land, and seconds later the spell ends.

That's how I'd do summoned creatures. They are summoned for a purpose..."Kill the devil!", "Guard the camp from intruders", "Carry our treasure out of the dungeon", etc. After the task is completed (or some specific duration...such as 10 minutes per level of the caster), the spell ends. In the "Guard the camp" example, a 12th level caster would have the summoned creature for no longer than 2 hours. If, during that time, the camp was attacked by an ogre, the summoned creature would attack it. After the ogre is dead, it would disperse, it's task complete.

I would also simply not allow "buffs" to work on summoned/created creatures. The way I see them, they aren't "real" creatures; they are magically re-created. I wouldn't allow someone to cast a buff spell on a buff spell, so I wouldn't let a buff spell be cast on a summon spell...after all, a summoned creature can be dispelled, right...?

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Gilladian]

I have to agree with Briarmonkey. I have never had people get wild with summoning, or even really USE it! Leadership we ignore; we add henchmen and cohorts totally based on RP, and whatever happens, happens; mostly they stay home. Other groups may see things differently, of course.