Pathfinder 1E Your experiences with broken Pathfinder characters? (edit: more accurately, w/1 avg PF character when the rest of the party is meh)

[billd91]

I might eventually start a House Rules thread on this topic, but first I wanted to hear what other gamers have experienced on this topic.

I have a group of 7th level PCs:
* A warforged fighter/warforged juggernaut. AC 23.
* A half-orc dragon shaman. AC 20.
* A human summoner. AC 17.
* A human wizard. AC 12.
* aaaand an aasimar sorcerer 3/zen archer monk 4.

The aasimar's AC is 10 + 6 Wisdom + 2 Dex + 1 monk = 19. Typically she adds mage armor (+4 armor), and when she knows trouble's a-brewing she'll add on shield (+4 shield) and reduce person (an extra +1 Dex and +1 size), for a total of AC 29. She asked about the Qiggong Monk, which would have let her trade out slow fall for barkskin, adding another +2, and when I actually looked at her math and realized how ridiculous she was, she pointed out that she hasn't even taken Dodge.

Oh, and her attack bonus as a Zen Archer is +12 (base 4, +6 Wisdom, +1 weapon focus, +1 enhancement), which is the same as the fighter. Plus she runs faster and doesn't have to engage in melee. She has a +7 Reflex save (the fighter has +1).

Now maybe I've drunk too much D&D Next kool-aid, but I hate the amount of math and stacking of weird bonuses that goes on in 3.5/PF. Has anyone successfully fixed the problem? Do I just need to send high level wizards with empowered Magic Missiles at her?

Magic missile won't do you much good since shield negates them. Whenever she's got that shield up, magic missiles are useless.

OK, so her AC is stratospheric (compared to her peers). So what's her damage output? Reduce person will step her down a die on all attacks in return for that +2 to AC she's getting. Her damage with her unarmed attacks is probably relatively weak if she's so heavily invested in wisdom and I'm guessing she doesn't get a strength modifier on her bow. So she's hard to hit, hits frequently, but probably puts out only a relatively little but constant amount of damage. Frankly, that's not all that bad. Maybe it's a little frustrating since you can't hit her, but your ego shouldn't figure into it. Let her be the teflon monk if that's what she wants to be. Can she save the party's butts if they and their weaker defenses fall?

What I would suggest from here is telling her to start investing in things other than her defense for the next several levels since it's clear she's already mastered that task. As DM, it's well within your power to rein in a player diverging substantially in power from his or her peers. Use it.

 

[knottyprof]

It's at times like these (and at the start of any new game) that I like to remind myself and my players that anything the PCs are allowed to do, so are the NPCs.

You want to stack on a bunch of crazy templates and you've got the rules options to back it? (Crazy feral vampire lycanthrope monk thing from The Book of Really Asinine Player Options?) Go for it! Just don't be surprised when you suddenly find yourself facing threats from those same rules options. (Insane Fast Plane Shifting Doppleganger Assassins armed with wooden spears worked in a lovely silver filigree from the same set of rules.)

The GMs job is always to challenge the players. Not let them stroll casually through a fantasy world untouched. There's nothing heroic about that.

Huzzah!!! That is what I am saying. Don't blame the rules, use them and it isn't stealing if you want to model an NPC or two after the same crazy templates Players want to use.

 

[Celebrim]

I might eventually start a House Rules thread on this topic, but first I wanted to hear what other gamers have experienced on this topic.

I have a group of 7th level PCs:
* A warforged fighter/warforged juggernaut. AC 23.
* A half-orc dragon shaman. AC 20.
* A human summoner. AC 17.
* A human wizard. AC 12.
* aaaand an aasimar sorcerer 3/zen archer monk 4.

So, as a general rule I expect PC AC to average 14+character level. You've basically got two outliers - a human wizard that has spent no resources on AC and a twinked character that has spent a rather good deal of them. In practice though, I think the AC of your wizard would hit 21 using the same tricks as the sorcerer and the wizard would be better at those tricks (higher caster level). The Aasimar's AC is - sans spell use - actually only 19 which is pretty close to where it should be.

It will probably come as no surprise that build you are complaining about depends on a lot of things I don't allow: aasimar, zen archery, and monks for example are all unavailable under my house rules (as are warforged and PrCs generally). That said, in the long run this character isn't going to be a big problem compared to your full spellcasters unless the character has a particular PrC in mind that has a lot of synergy.

3.X has huge balance issues, and Pathfinder hasn't really even tried to address that issue. If you want balance, you'll going to need to take 3.X into a different direction than Pathfinder has taken it.

Do I just need to send high level wizards with empowered Magic Missiles at her?

No. Tossing Dispel Magic at her a few times though might help. Somewhere I have a thread where I discuss 'standard tactical combat team' that is relevant to this discussion. (here:http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?334797-How-to-be-a-munchkin-GM[) Her caster level sucks, and you'll likely take off several spells, which then in turn makes are vunerable to the rest of the tactical combat team. Also, a steadier stream of attrition encounters tends to be hard on spellcasters compared to letting them go nova on single big encounters. Also, anything that is both fast and can grapple (a tiger for example) is going to present something of a problem. Also, go ahead and let her have her fun. If the ogre brutes are focusing on low AC targets, at some point she is going to have to draw aggro for the good of the party. AC is pretty useless unless you are forcing things to pay attention to you, and her 'to hit' is good but her BAB sucks so in the long run that's a problem for her. Her expected damage isn't going to be climbing all that fast.

And example tactical combat team that would put heavy pressure on this party might be:

3 5th level Orc Clerics (with dispel magic, buffs, and healing)
2 Orc Barbarian/Fighters with guisarme and optimized as trippers
5 Ogre Fighters with breastplates and ogre sized masterwork two-handed swords.

Your 'broken' character is addressed by:

1) Clerics with dispel magic can debuff her or steal actions using dispel magic. Even something such as Sound Burst is doing an automatic d8 damage and provoking her weakish Fort save to avoid losing an action.
2) The two skirmishers are fast and have a good chance of tripping her do to her low defence against combat manuevers (apparently this last part might not be true in pathfinder)
3) The ogre front line has an attack bonus around +13 when charging, and hits for about 16 damage as well as putting her in to a treat zone. Even buffed, she's threatened, and if she gets debuffed by the clerics, she's hurting in a hurry.
4) In general, she has to work to exert damage pressure on the enemy. She isn't stealing all the spot light from the rest of the party. In fact, durable or not, she's possibly irrelevant compared to the Wizard or Summoner (I'm guessing she doesn't have 'Precise Shot' either). Focus on the party threats. Make her work to become a threat.

Another example tactical combat team:

2 Tabaxi Shamans (with spell buffs)
3 Tabaxi Archers (holding actions to disrupt spell casters)
5 Tigers (with charge or flank, and assuming something like magic fang, +12 to hit)

I could keep going. I'm not feeling huge pressure on combat design from this character.

 

[Salamandyr]

The monk's AC is high, but the AC of the other characters is really low. The Wizard should probably be around 16 minimum (mage armor and 14 dex), the Juggernaut AC is ok, for a great weapon fighter, but could be higher. It looks like none of the other characters but the monk invested in defensive items.

 

[Nigh Invulnerable]

Assuming that they work like their 3.5e counterparts, they provide different kinds of armor bonuses.

Here's the thing; if you're going Monk Archer (Dex, Wis) and are a Sorcerer (needs some Cha) what do your other stats look like? If you're nigh-unhittable, for example, but can't do damage due to low strength, enemies can just walk past you, slaughter the party, and finish you off at their leisure.

And there's certainly ways to negate an archer even if they do deal damage.

Trip the monk. Initiating a trip is a touch attack, followed by a strength check.

Cut off the monk. Wall of Ice is a 4th level spell, and it can form a hemisphere around someone.

Sunder the bow. Cast Wind Wall. You get the idea.

Tripping is not the same in Pathfinder as it was in 3.x. You just make a Combat Maneuver Bonus (CMB) roll vs their Combat Maneuver Defense (CMD) to resolve the Trip (or Disarm, Grapple, etc.). Pathfinder Monks get absurd bonuses to their CMB and CMD, even if built poorly, so "just trip the monk" becomes a bit tougher to achieve.

 

[Salamandyr]

I've always found that High Defense is one of the few things it was really easy to do with a monk. They get saving throws and are encouraged to have high stats in the ability scores that affect them; they get two attributes to add to AC, so can double dip ability bonus items, and spells designed to give wizards halfway decent AC are absurdly powerful in the hands of a monk. And as an added bonus, pretty much their entire AC applies to touch AC.

So it doesn't take much mastery to make a "teflon monk" as an earlier poster called them. The question is usually, "what else can they do beside not be hit?". I've also noticed, even with high AC's, they still get hit a fair amount of times, since even with only a 10% success rate, out of a 100 attack rolls, 10 are going to land, and PC's get attacked hundres of times. They rarely have the hit points to stand up once hit.

 

[Clyde Lee Graham]

I might eventually start a House Rules thread on this topic, but first I wanted to hear what other gamers have experienced on this topic.

I have a group of 7th level PCs:
* A warforged fighter/warforged juggernaut. AC 23.
* A half-orc dragon shaman. AC 20.
* A human summoner. AC 17.
* A human wizard. AC 12.
* aaaand an aasimar sorcerer 3/zen archer monk 4.

The aasimar's AC is 10 + 6 Wisdom + 2 Dex + 1 monk = 19. Typically she adds mage armor (+4 armor), and when she knows trouble's a-brewing she'll add on shield (+4 shield) and reduce person (an extra +1 Dex and +1 size), for a total of AC 29. She asked about the Qiggong Monk, which would have let her trade out slow fall for barkskin, adding another +2, and when I actually looked at her math and realized how ridiculous she was, she pointed out that she hasn't even taken Dodge.

Oh, and her attack bonus as a Zen Archer is +12 (base 4, +6 Wisdom, +1 weapon focus, +1 enhancement), which is the same as the fighter. Plus she runs faster and doesn't have to engage in melee. She has a +7 Reflex save (the fighter has +1).

Now maybe I've drunk too much D&D Next kool-aid, but I hate the amount of math and stacking of weird bonuses that goes on in 3.5/PF. Has anyone successfully fixed the problem? Do I just need to send high level wizards with empowered Magic Missiles at her?

Sadly, I lost my original post. Thankfully, others have said a lot of what I was going to say as well...

Your monk (AC 29)is giving up the ability to do damage in order to not be hit. If they've reduced their size they're getting 3 1d6+1+STR (if any) at, I'm guessing, around +11 or +12. Also, they won't be able to AoO with the bow until they get to BAB +6, OR 9th level if I remember correctly. Avg dmg of 14.

With a Bastard Sword and shield fighter (AC 25), and the right choice of feats, they'll be getting 1 full BAB (+15) attack at 1d10+1d10+13, or a full attack of 1d10+1d10+13 at +15, and then a second attack of 1d10+13 at +8, assuming Power Attack. Avg dmg of 24 or 43.

So, what you have is a monk that's 20% harder to hit that has probably half as many hit points and does 50 to 60% less damage. I'm not sure that that's a huge problem.

Now, if the fighter is a two handed fighter... yeah, there's going to be a much bigger difference in AC... 7 to 8 points. On the flip side, however, their damage output is immense... 2d6+2d6+15, or 2d6+2d6+15 & 2d6+15. Avg dmg of 29 or 51.

Edit: Does the Monk have a WIS item, because they could only have a WIS of 21 at 7th level otherwise? They also gave up evasion, so area effect spells are more effective. Just about any opponent with DR will shut the monk down, unlike the fighter.

 

[TemporalWolf]

I've always enjoyed netting wizards and monks. One Orcish Trapper spec'd for nets could easily contain that monk: Surprise from stealth, ranged touch range 10ft. Now they are entangled (with all the good stuff that comes along with that) and with an opposed strength check they cannot leave the 10ft area. Concentration checks to cast spells, full round actions to free oneself... give them quickdraw and multiple nets and now they can shut someone down.

I've built opposite spectrum barbarians: AC 8 while raging, average damage >50 at lvl 7. The DM countered by having us fight underwater, against flying enemies, etc... all where my reach and ability to move into position was impaired. It worked out well. Plenty of options out there.

 

[Starfox]

I fail to see a problem. To me, the baseline for "good" AC is 20 + level. She lands pat in that range. She can buff herself above if for a short time. She might not "have" to engage in melee, but instead she has to stay out of it - often just as troublesome. Send skirmisher-type monsters at her.

Your other PCs seem to have pretty low ACs tough. If one player optimizes and the other's don't, that can be a problem. Or maybe you are not handing out many protective items to the armor-wearers. Less magic items makes the fighter cry.

 

[RangerWickett]

Good lord, AC 20 + level is "good"? Okay, see, this is where I want to flip out and stab D&D in the face.

I want to play D&D to be a big guy in full plate with a shield, or a nimble guy in leather, or maybe a kung fu guy who dodges because he's all zen and stuff.

I don't play D&D because I want to buy items that give me +1 deflection, +1 natural armor, +1 enhancement armor, +1 enhancement shield, +1 luck, and boosts to my Dex. That stuff really REALLY bores me, especially as a GM because a ruleset that requires those items just causes me to spend pointless time picking out gear of appropriate value in order for an enemy to be a decent challenge.

I definitely don't want to have to include giants, nets, and NPCs with dispel magic in my 'fantasy spy mission' adventure, simply because one PC is not threatened by mortals. I was running 4e before, and got fed up with the way it let players stack tons of debuff effects on prominent enemies, so we switched to PF, and now it's the math that's beating me up.

I really think I'd rather just convert to a system where my intuition about how challenging something should be in a 'Hollywood physics' world is matched by the system. John McClane survives Die Hard because he's a scrappy hero, not because he was kitted up like a magic Christmas tree.

. . .

I may be somewhat emotional as I'm writing this.