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Stalker0

Legend
Players fear loss of fun more than loss of their characters.

If the character dies, they get to make a new one with an exciting new background.

If they lose their magic, they become ineffectual, and boring.

And yes, this is a direct result of character's reliance on magic items.
 

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Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
If the character dies, they get to make a new one with an exciting new background.

If they lose their magic, they become ineffectual, and boring.

That's one way to look at it.

I see it as:

If my PC dies,
I lose a PC with an exciting history and reputation that I worked hard to build up...but I also get to make a new one with an exciting new background. (I must have over a hundred roughed-out PCs for 3.5 alone, not counting other editions and other games.)

If my PC loses his gear, it becomes temporarily ineffectual, but I have the opportunity to find other new and exciting gear...possibly better than what I had before.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him) 🇺🇦🇵🇸🏳️‍⚧️
Players fear loss of fun more than loss of their characters.

If the character dies, they get to make a new one with an exciting new background.

If they lose their magic, they become ineffectual, and boring.

And yes, this is a direct result of character's reliance on magic items.

I disagree that it's a direct result. I've heard a lot of complaints (including in the PF playtest boards and run-up to 4e) about loss of fun issues that sound very similar and not all of them focus on losing gear. In fact, more of them focus on being taken out by some un-fun save-or-sit effect that keeps them from participating in the session. So, while players may covet and depend on gear, there's something much broader at work that isn't just an issue of magic equipment.

What I'm seeing about the un-fun thing is that incorporates just about everything, whether it's facing a temporary loss of actions or loss of effectiveness until lost gear is built back up. There's is this level of passive competitiveness between players. "If I'm not having the same amount of fun as that player <points> right now, all the time, then there's something wrong with the game." Inherent in that is the assumption that there's something wrong with the game and not the player's expectations...

Now, this may be old cantankerous feelings on my part as I see the behavior of players change over time (cue: the "back in my day" story). But I really do see it as an issue. There seems to be a significant portion of the gaming community that does not look at the long term of the character's development and play other than the build. The idea that some PCs shine in certain situations and you might wait from time to time to have your own spotlight moment seems to be increasingly anathema.

Laying the un-fun issue at the feet of magic item dependence doesn't come anywhere close to the root of the issue. If anything, it's just a symptom of a much broader issue that I'm not at all sure applies in this case.

Players simply love their gear. They love to get better gear. They love to build up a PC's capabilities with gear. They'll fight to keep a run-of-the-mill +3 sword like it was Anduril itself and they were Aragorn. They seem to love their gear almost as much (sometimes more) than their characters.

As much as I disagree with the analysis of the post, Dragonblade may have a point. In earlier editions, things were different or at least seemed it. But I disagree that 3e's mechanics lived in a limbo between paradigms and didn't work. In 1e, when characters were expected to be rolled up, had fewer variables to select, your expectations were different. Life was tougher and if you got a lucky break, you were grateful for it. With point buy, tons of choices, and player empowerment all over the place, if you get an unlucky break, you see bitter complaint. I think it mirrors the kind of things you see in historical/political studies. The most resentment when the worm turns comes from the people with the highest expectations before they were dashed. This may mean that RPGs, as they have developed from the first generation, may be their own worst enemies when it comes to sowing discord and disgruntlement.
 

Maldor

First Post
i just got to say it your dragon is a idiot if the point of killing the 2 guys you attack but had nothing against was to weaken the three you hated then why not just attack the three that are also by themselfs at the time you were offing the two

P.S. sharn should have easly been able to moblize a force that would have stomped that dragon in to the floor in the time it took to kill, despose of the bodys and wipe up all the blood of the now pointlessly dead PC's
 

Jeff Wilder

First Post
i just got to say it your dragon is a idiot if the point of killing the 2 guys you attack but had nothing against was to weaken the three you hated then why not just attack the three that are also by themselfs at the time you were offing the two
Hmmm. Can you think of any possible explanation for that?

P.S. sharn should have easly been able to moblize a force that would have stomped that dragon in to the floor in the time it took to kill, despose of the bodys and wipe up all the blood of the now pointlessly dead PC's
In a minute? Really? My Sharn doesn't have any Elminsters running around. The PCs -- 12th level -- are among the 50 or so most powerful people in the city at this point.
 

drothgery

First Post
Yes, they can, although it would involve a trip to another nation. (In Eberron, 17th level clerics are very, very rare., so the only one they know can do it is the Voice of the Flame in the nation of Thrane.) But they have the money -- three 12th level PCs with ~100,000 gp worth of gear each -- and the means to get where they'd need to go.

Though in standard Eberron, the Church of the Silver Flame generally frowns on raising the dead...
 

Parlan

First Post
This question fascinates me. I can't figure out why the players do what they do half the time.

I think it comes down to helplessness (a previous poster mentioned this too). Players just do *NOT* want to feel like they are helpless or impotent. So they choose to throw their lives away in some futile gesture that at least lets them go down swinging.

There have been a lot of arguments that assume the players are thinking through their options rationally. But personally, speaking as one who's made similar decisions, I don't think the players actually consider their options rationally.

Instead, some sort of weird decision paralysis sets in and they decide, "surrender, no way! Never Give Up!!!"

One way to avoid this in the future is to make a sort of covenant with them. I try to explain my world through the Conan novels. E.g., Conan is sometimes taken prisoner, but he's never humiliated. And he always gets a chance for revenge if he so chooses.

My games run more smoothly when everybody has similar expectations.

I think reminding players of this allows them to visualize a defeat that isn't the helplessness they're worried about.

Another option would be for the DM to take a bathroom break right before the players make their decision. Leave the room so they can table talk a little bit with the other players. That will also let them calm down a bit and hopefully think rationally.
 

ProfessorCirno

Banned
Banned
I'm going to have to agree with what someone said on the first page. You essentially told your players: "My NPC comes down and wins no matter what you do. It demands you give up everything you own and walk away like a bunch of cowards. What do you do?"

In their minds, there's two choices: Go down fighting like the hero they feel they're supposed to represent, or run away like a pansy before the almighty DMNPC who can't lose.
 

Jeff Wilder

First Post
Another option would be for the DM to take a bathroom break right before the players make their decision. Leave the room so they can table talk a little bit with the other players. That will also let them calm down a bit and hopefully think rationally.
That is an excellent practical suggestion. I wish I'd thought of it.


Jeff
 

Jeff Wilder

First Post
I'm going to have to agree with what someone said on the first page. You essentially told your players: "My NPC comes down and wins no matter what you do. It demands you give up everything you own and walk away like a bunch of cowards. What do you do?"
So what does this mean in play?

That a DM should never present fights that the PCs can't win?

That a DM should hide the fact that the PCs can't win?

That the DM should always have NPCs behave in a clearly stupid manner?

Something else?
 

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