Cleon
Legend
Looks fine.
Updating the Completed Fifth Edition Creatures Index.
EDIT: Just added them to the 5E Monsters Based on Third Edition Sources Index, since the Ti-khana are from the 3E Fiend Folio.
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Yuan Ti and allies thread (Ti-Khana critters)
- Thread starter Casimir Liber
- Start date
Looks fine.
Updating the Completed Fifth Edition Creatures Index.
EDIT: Just added them to the 5E Monsters Based on Third Edition Sources Index, since the Ti-khana are from the 3E Fiend Folio.
Cleon
Legend
So let's see, of the t-khana the Ti-khana Giant Pterosaur and Ti-khana Venomwing Pterosaur are completed.
That leaves the Ti-khana War Pterosaur and Ti-khana Venomwing Swarm to complete.
Doing the Venomwing Swarm next seems most logical as we've finished the Ti-khana Venomwing.
First thing to decide is a Challenge Rating. An individual venomwing is pretty nasty for its size at CR 1/4, so a couple of hundred of them would be way more dangerous than the same number of rats or tarantulas.
That leaves the Ti-khana War Pterosaur and Ti-khana Venomwing Swarm to complete.
Doing the Venomwing Swarm next seems most logical as we've finished the Ti-khana Venomwing.
First thing to decide is a Challenge Rating. An individual venomwing is pretty nasty for its size at CR 1/4, so a couple of hundred of them would be way more dangerous than the same number of rats or tarantulas.
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Casimir Liber
Adventurer
One idea may be to think of them in a scenario with other yuan ti critters. So we have deinonychi and giant pterosaurs at CR 2 each, and triceratops at CR 9...maybe in the middle somewhere...CR 5 or 6?
Cleon
Legend
Cleon
Legend
A couple of ideas.
Firstly, if each Ti-khana Venomwing Pterosaur in a Venomwing Swarm has Pack Tactics, wouldn't the swarm always have advantage on attack rolls because it's literally a pack of creatures in its own right?
So maybe change Pack Tactics to the following:
Secondly, I'm tempted to add the following as a Special Trait or perhaps a Bonus Action:
I don't think the entire swarm needs to stop and concentrate to benefit from detect magic. A few venomwings who act as lookouts could cast it and squawk an alert to the rest of the swarm should they sense magic.
Firstly, if each Ti-khana Venomwing Pterosaur in a Venomwing Swarm has Pack Tactics, wouldn't the swarm always have advantage on attack rolls because it's literally a pack of creatures in its own right?
So maybe change Pack Tactics to the following:
Swarm Tactics. The venomwing swarm has advantage on attack rolls against a creature if the swarm, or at least one ally of the swarm that that isn't incapacitated, is within 5 feet of the creature.
Secondly, I'm tempted to add the following as a Special Trait or perhaps a Bonus Action:
Magic Detection (Special Trait Version). While the venomwing swarm is in pterosaur form and not incapacitated it continuously senses magic within 30 feet of it, because a few of the swarm's pterosaurs are concentrating on detect magic spells.
Magic Detection (Bonus Action Version). If the venomwing swarm is in pterosaur form and not incapacitated, a few of its pterosaurs cast the detect magic spell on its turn, allowing the swarm to sense magic within 30 feet of it.
I don't think the entire swarm needs to stop and concentrate to benefit from detect magic. A few venomwings who act as lookouts could cast it and squawk an alert to the rest of the swarm should they sense magic.
Casimir Liber
Adventurer
Love both - would do as Special Trait rather than bonus action (imagining a swarm with loads of them, should be auto-on at all times
Cleon
Legend
Fine by me.
My original rough draft had it as a Special Trait but then I started musing as to whether Bonus Action would work better.
Updating the Ti-khana Venomwing Pterosaur Swarm.
Cleon
Legend
Next we'd better decide on the number of Hit Dice.
A Challenge 5 creature typically has 131 to 145 hp, which matches a range from 131 (29d8) to 144 (32d8) as venomwings do not have a CON modifier.
Is that too much? Well a Rat has 1 hp and a Rat Swarm has 24 hp. Individual venomwings have 7 hp, so if the swarm has 24 times as many hit points that'd be 168, even more than we're using.
However, the swarm also has lots of resistances/immunities, including Magic Resistance, so if it had 135 (30d8) or 144 (32d8) hit points its Defensive CR is 13 or 14, which is WAY too high.
If we halved the HD to 15d8 (67 hp) or 16d8 (72 hp) it comes to DCR 5, which is what we want.
Of the two, I fancy Hit Points 72 (16d8).
A Challenge 5 creature typically has 131 to 145 hp, which matches a range from 131 (29d8) to 144 (32d8) as venomwings do not have a CON modifier.
Is that too much? Well a Rat has 1 hp and a Rat Swarm has 24 hp. Individual venomwings have 7 hp, so if the swarm has 24 times as many hit points that'd be 168, even more than we're using.
However, the swarm also has lots of resistances/immunities, including Magic Resistance, so if it had 135 (30d8) or 144 (32d8) hit points its Defensive CR is 13 or 14, which is WAY too high.
If we halved the HD to 15d8 (67 hp) or 16d8 (72 hp) it comes to DCR 5, which is what we want.
Of the two, I fancy Hit Points 72 (16d8).
Cleon
Legend
It also needs a Strength score.
Of the SRD Swarms:
A Venomwing is STR 6, so how about making the Venomwing Swarm's score eight or ten higher for either STR 14 or STR 16.
Of the two, I like eight for STR 14 (+2) as (a) there isn't an eight in the above plus (b) it give the Venomswarm a different Strength than the STR 16 Giant Pterosaur.
Of the SRD Swarms:
Bat Swarm (STR 5) is seven higher than a Bat (STR 2)[CR 1/4].
CR 1/2 Insect Swarm (STR 3) is likely one or two higher than an Insect (maybe STR 1, but Spiders are STR 2)[CR 1/2].
Poisonous Snake Swarm (STR 8) is six higher than a Poisonous Snake (STR 2)[CR 2].
Quipper Swarm (STR 13) is eleven higher than a Quipper (STR 2)[CR 1].
Rat Swarm (STR 9) is seven higher than a Rat (STR 2)[CR 1/4].
Raven Swarm (STR 6) is four higher than a Rat (STR 2)[CR 1/4].
CR 1/2 Insect Swarm (STR 3) is likely one or two higher than an Insect (maybe STR 1, but Spiders are STR 2)[CR 1/2].
Poisonous Snake Swarm (STR 8) is six higher than a Poisonous Snake (STR 2)[CR 2].
Quipper Swarm (STR 13) is eleven higher than a Quipper (STR 2)[CR 1].
Rat Swarm (STR 9) is seven higher than a Rat (STR 2)[CR 1/4].
Raven Swarm (STR 6) is four higher than a Rat (STR 2)[CR 1/4].
A Venomwing is STR 6, so how about making the Venomwing Swarm's score eight or ten higher for either STR 14 or STR 16.
Of the two, I like eight for STR 14 (+2) as (a) there isn't an eight in the above plus (b) it give the Venomswarm a different Strength than the STR 16 Giant Pterosaur.
Cleon
Legend
So if you're OK with HP 72 (16d8) and STR 14 (+2) the only remaining mechanical element is how much damage its Bites do and whether it has Multiattack or not.
The best SRD comparison is a Swarm of Poisonous Snakes, since it's the only Swarm with Poison. It'd also be useful to compare it to a Poisonous Snake.
The swarm of vipers has:
While an individual snake has:
Note that the Poisonous Snake's bite does five times more poison damage than piercing damage (1 vs 2d4), while a swarm of them only does twice as much poison as piercing (2d6 vs 4d6).
Our Venomwing does three times as much poison as piercing damage (well, three and a half if you want to be precise).
The CR Calculator says that and DPR between 15 and 38 will give a Challenge of 5, but I'd rather keep the Offensive CR at 5, which'll require a DPR of 27 to 38, although we might as well use the standard 33-38 DPR of a Challenge 5 creature.
If we aimed for, say DPR 35 or 36 it'd be something like:
The Poisonous Snake Swarm does the same amount of poison damage even if the swarm has half of its hit points or fewer, so I guess the Venomwing Swarm's poison should be the same.
Alternatively, we could split the damage into two Multiattack Bites like so:
The best SRD comparison is a Swarm of Poisonous Snakes, since it's the only Swarm with Poison. It'd also be useful to compare it to a Poisonous Snake.
The swarm of vipers has:
Bites. Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 0 ft., one creature in the swarm’s space. Hit: 7 (2d6) piercing damage, or 3 (1d6) piercing damage if the swarm has half of its hit points or fewer. The target must make a DC 10 Constitution saving throw, taking 14 (4d6) poison damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.
While an individual snake has:
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 1 piercing damage, and the target must make a DC 10 Constitution saving throw, taking 5 (2d4) poison damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.
Note that the Poisonous Snake's bite does five times more poison damage than piercing damage (1 vs 2d4), while a swarm of them only does twice as much poison as piercing (2d6 vs 4d6).
Our Venomwing does three times as much poison as piercing damage (well, three and a half if you want to be precise).
The CR Calculator says that and DPR between 15 and 38 will give a Challenge of 5, but I'd rather keep the Offensive CR at 5, which'll require a DPR of 27 to 38, although we might as well use the standard 33-38 DPR of a Challenge 5 creature.
If we aimed for, say DPR 35 or 36 it'd be something like:
Bites. Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit with advantage on the attack roll, reach 0 ft., one creature in the swarm’s space. Hit: 14 (4d6) piercing damage plus 22 (4d10) poison damage, or 7 (2d6) piercing damage plus 22 (4d10) poison damage if the swarm has half of its hit points or fewer.
The Poisonous Snake Swarm does the same amount of poison damage even if the swarm has half of its hit points or fewer, so I guess the Venomwing Swarm's poison should be the same.
Alternatively, we could split the damage into two Multiattack Bites like so:
Multiattack. The venomwing swarm makes two bites attacks.
Bites (Multiattack Version). Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit with advantage on the attack roll, reach 0 ft., one creature in the swarm’s space. Hit: 7 (2d6) piercing damage plus 11 (2d10) poison damage, or 3 (1d6) piercing damage plus 11 (2d10) poison damage if the swarm has half of its hit points or fewer.
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