Zombie and Skeleton Minion Madness!

[rushlight]

So, I'm setting up a few undead encounters for my level 1 party. I began looking at the minions for zombies and skeletons. At first, I was unsure about including multiple level 3 creatures (even though they're minions) in the encounter - but then I compared the level 3 Zombie Rotter to the level 1 Decrepit Skeleton. That's when I began to wonder what the designers were thinking...

The Zombie has:
A lower Initiatve
Poorer senses
Lower AC
Lower Reflex
Lower Will
Lower Speed
No Ranged attack
Lower stat in every case except CHA.

It has the same Fortitude
The same immunities
The same to-hit
The same CHA
And of course, the same HPs.

The only area where it is superior to the Skeleton is in damage - it does a single point more. Oh, and it's worth 13 more XP.

So can someone explain why a monster that is so obviously worse in every case is *2* levels higher? I'm assuming by looking at this example (and the other threads pondering at minion creation methods) that the designers basically "winged" it, and there's no internal structure to minion creation...

 

[Mort_Q]

Perhaps it has to do with the roles and the groupings?

Skeletons start as artillery before moving in, and zombies are soldiers. Depending on their boss monster, this could make a difference.

I don't know. Nor do I think it really matters, 'cept I'd also like to understand why.

 

[StormCrow42]

Perhaps because Zombies have always been higher up the chain than skeletons, so the designers felt obliged to keep them that way.

 

[frankthedm]

damage is the most precious thing to a minion. Change the Zombie rotter to +4 to hit and 4 damge on a hit and it will be a first level minion.

Also, there seems to be certain powerful zombies can cause the zombie rotters to gain grab on a hit. I saw one example in dungeon magazine last week.

 

[Yaezakura]

It's a thematic issue. Zombies are brute monsters--easy to hit sacks of HP, don't hit often but hurt when they do. Unfortunately, those things don't translate well to being a minion, as the zombie is no longer a tough sack of HP. But chances are its stats lineup with normal level 3 zombies--it just doesn't have the HP of a normal zombie, which is the primary thing that sets them apart from skeletons.

 

[GoLu]

I have an alternative explanation. The zombie rotter is actually level 1 and only pretends to be level 3.

Look at its attribute bonuses. Strength of 14 giving a +2 bonus? What's up with that? Compare that to the (lower level) zombie. The rotter's secret shame is revealed.

 

[Spatula]

So can someone explain why a monster that is so obviously worse in every case is *2* levels higher?

Nope. Lots of people have noticed this; it's a typo or a screw-up.

I'm assuming by looking at this example (and the other threads pondering at minion creation methods) that the designers basically "winged" it, and there's no internal structure to minion creation...

I don't think it's winged, neccessarily. Compare the zombie rotter to the non-minion zombie and skeleton.

The rotter is 1 level higher than the regular zombie, which is a little strange, and that makes me think that the level 3 for the rotter is a typo or a mistaken hold-over.

The two zombies otherwise have very similar values - the same exact defenses, etc (if it was really level 3, it should have roughly +1 defenses over the non-minion zombie). So the rotter almost certainly used the normal zombie as a base. You can see similarities between the decrepit skeleton and the regular skeleton as well, at least as far as defenses go. The skeleton warrior is 2 levels higher than the decrepit skeleton, and has a flat +2 defenses.

Now, minions don't have roles, but the skeleton is a soldier, and the zombie is a brute. Looking at the DMG, a soldier's numbers are really just 95% superior compared to all other roles. Better defenses, better attacks, better initiative. Brutes have lower defenses, lower attack bonuses, but more HP. One would imagine that they would do more damage as well.

So, if you were to take a soldier and minion-ize its stats, you'd end up with a minion that has better-than-average Initiative, defenses, and attacks - all of which are very important for minions, as they need to get attacks in before they are hit and killed. Whatever tradeoffs for HP and damage that went into the soldier design are not important, because all minions have 1 HP and deal around the same damage. If you were to minion-ize a brute, you'd end up with a rather worthless creature like the zombie rotter. The low defenses of a brute are balanced out by its high HP, but all minions have 1 HP so you just end up with a creature that is easy to hit, and that dies the first time it's hit. And the higher brute damage turns into nothing much at all for a minion.

So I think that minions, or at least those that are based off of non-minion creatures, are basically templated monsters. It also seems like no one looked at the final numbers on the rotter (at least) to see if they made any sense. With the decrepit skeleton, it actually does not have the +2 "soldier bonus" to its initiative and attack rolls, although it keeps the high defenses. The rotter should have been adjusted in a similar manner, perhaps given higher defenses since the normal zombie model of low-AC/high-HP does not work well with minions.

 

[kaomera]

It's a thematic issue. Zombies are brute monsters--easy to hit sacks of HP, don't hit often but hurt when they do. Unfortunately, those things don't translate well to being a minion, as the zombie is no longer a tough sack of HP. But chances are its stats lineup with normal level 3 zombies--it just doesn't have the HP of a normal zombie, which is the primary thing that sets them apart from skeletons.

This. Because the roles defined for monsters include a consideration for hit points, and those are wiped away when the monster is made a minion. From my reading of the DMG and MM I don't think the designers are creating minions as minions, it's a process of converting an existing monster into a throwaway...

They could have made it so that Soldier Minions had 2 hp, and Brutes 4. It wouldn't have mattered much, tho, and would have required more book-keeping. As is all you really need to know about a minion is: "Is the figure still on the map?" and "Has it acted yet?"

 

[BarkingDeathSquirrel]

I think throwing on something like Resist All 5, Vulnerability (Radiant) 5 (just to cancel out the resist) on to the rotters would make them a bit tougher to match their level 3 status.

Maybe include that Zombie Weakness to crits too, just for those rare cases of getting a crit and it doing less than 6 damage...

 

[rushlight]

I hope it's a typo. As for roles, they're both Minions, so they are supposed to just be meatwalls - but that's different than a throwaway. Minions *do* pose a threat, especially in numbers. But a level 3 Zombie against a level 3 party poses a much less dangerous threat, if any at all.

I just can't see why there's a difference in XP or expected level. As level 3 creatures, they should be harder to hit and should hit easier than they currently do. As Spatula mentioned, it seems likely that they started with two different roles and then "minionized" them. Looking at the "Monster Statistics by Role" table on page 184 of the DMG, it's pretty clear.

Anyway, those who are trying to deduce the "Minionizing" process could likely gain some helpful clues here. Also, I figure I'll be busting those Zombie Minions down to level 1...