Zombie Outbreak - where to hide?

[Jim Hague]

Nah, the military has defense in depth strategies. They favor mobile attack and defense. And snipers and marksmen will quickly find out that head shots will work. Very quick. And will let everyone know. Then they call in Puff and some A-10's (loased wtih 30 mm HE) and cluster bombs, and some Apaches...

Except that doing that in a civilian area neither guarantees success nor clears it of zombies. Many of the wounded will likely die and rise. Oops. As for snipers, well, go watch 28 Weeks Later for how that works out...

And they will let other people know by radio. Almost the entire military is wired and radioed. The US military learns really fast. One person like guards standing outside give warning or the ambulance drives get a warning, the alarm is out.

Or spreads the panic.

Not unless a biohazard warning is sounded. And it will be. Procedures are really different.

Too bad those suits are clumsy and cumbersome, with masks that greatkly restrict hearing and sight. It's like a candy bar in a wrapper.

The base might be overrun. The US military command is mobile and decentralized.

Then another base, and another, and another...

Not likely. The US military has real time reconnaissance and live feed recon drones. They can concentrate an enormous amount of firepower really quickly. They have snipers that will be making head shots that kill and radioing it to everyone. The US military learns shockingly fast. It's called the hyperwar doctrine.

It's called specialized training line infantry doesn't have and weapons that aren't capable of making those vital shots.

Snipers and marksmen will tell them that head shots work. Then the US military will just scoff at the pathetic zombie amateurs.

See above.

Most of their families will be evacuated or live near the military base. Yes, some will flee, but most will not.

Except that the base will quickly be overrun not by zombies but by wounded and desperate survivors...who die, turn...inside the perimeter. Oops.

Not likely. Maybe in Russia. The US? No. Zombies are an epidemic at best and easily destroyed.

World War Z and Monster Nation both address this issue. Answer - no. Not when you're fighting an enemy capable of putting out 100% 100% of the time that recruits forcibly from your own ranks.

 

[Warren Okuma]

Too bad most of the good snipers are overseas, along with a lot of the good hardware, vehicles and weapons.

So? There are still the sniper and marksmanship instructors, and students here. Scopes are showing up in Marine units is very large numbers and they are training to do headshots (because that is what you usually see). You only need one guy to do it and go on the radio. Only a quarter of the US soldiers are in Iraq.

yeah, specialists endu p in serious immediate danger rushing to help infected people and isolating them.

Actualy the new Kevlar lined suits are almost bite proof.

and someone has to be giving the orders. There will be a lag between outbreak and activating military forces.

Eh, one hour to a week, depending on the base (this is based on activation drills I hear about). As units come online there are fed to the battlefield. Some units are self activating such as Marines.

huh? When most of my friends were in the service they were hundreds to thousands of miles away from old friends an family. Good luck rounidng people up in that situation.

Most of my marine friends and their families live in Kailua around the military base there.

 

[Warren Okuma]

Except that doing that in a civilian area neither guarantees success nor clears it of zombies. Many of the wounded will likely die and rise. Oops. As for snipers, well, go watch 28 Weeks Later for how that works out...

No, no, no. Close support. You put enough firepower that the zombies literally fall apart.

Or spreads the panic.

Some. Information can give you courage.

Too bad those suits are clumsy and cumbersome, with masks that greatkly restrict hearing and sight. It's like a candy bar in a wrapper.

No it's got kevlar. It's like an armored candy bar, that can make a radio transmission.

Then another base, and another, and another...

Or not.

It's called specialized training line infantry doesn't have and weapons that aren't capable of making those vital shots.

Actually no. These days, they are training to do head shots, since that's all the soldier usually sees on the battle ground.

Except that the base will quickly be overrun not by zombies but by wounded and desperate survivors...who die, turn...inside the perimeter. Oops.

You tie the wounded up. Everybody is not stupid you know. People actually listen to what's being said on the radio and know what they see on the remotes.

World War Z and Monster Nation both address this issue. Answer - no. Not when you're fighting an enemy capable of putting out 100% 100% of the time that recruits forcibly from your own ranks

So far, what you have quoted about World War Z and Monster Nation is tactics taken from pre gulf war. Obsolete tactics, no longer used by the US.

 

[Celebrim]

World War Z and Monster Nation both address this issue. Answer - no. Not when you're fighting an enemy capable of putting out 100% 100% of the time that recruits forcibly from your own ranks.

I'm going to avoid indulging my military geek, and skip that whole argument.

Instead, I'm going to focus on how badly citing WWZ fails as an argument.

The problem with citing a novel as an argument, even in its details, is that a novel like WWZ begins with the premise 'Zombies will push humanity into isolated pockets of survivors'. From that premise, the zombie invasion and everything that facilitates it gain the power of plot. Zombies are world beaters because they have to be in order for the premise to be fulfilled, and not because it is logical for them to do so.

We are trying to 'game' the scenario of a zombie outbreak, and this means very different things than trying to write a novel about it.

Of course, we could always create a set of assumptions about zombies that make them world beaters. However, doing this while sticking to the standard genera assumptions will be very difficult - which is why more recent movies striving for versimilitude have made zombies super fast and strong. Doing this while not resorting repeatedly simply to 'magic' will be even more difficult, if not impossible.

 

[Eltharon]

I think the argument here is between the pro-zombie movie folks and the pro military folks. Now, regardless of who is right, the fact of the matter is that if the military is strong in fiction, it makes for a really terrible story. I mean, come on. Zombies rise, mass panic, people die, story focuses on group of people drawn together by this with all their emotional baggage, and then, 30 minutes into the movie, tanks and APCs charge in and kill all the zombies.
Realistically, I think alot of it will be chance. I mean, with alot of troops in Iraq now, thats weeks of transportation to bring them back, and depending on how the infection spreads, it could get out of hand before Nation Guard units mobilize. The initial panic would decide quite a bit.
Granted, if the Bush, Cheney, and all the high ranking DoD officials have just gotten back from their Zombie movie marathon when this breaks out, I'd imagine it would be over quickly

EDIT: Oh, and remember. World War Z and the ZSG ( i read em both) are good books, but they are FICTION. So don't assume they're the bible of Zombieness.

 

[Warren Okuma]

I think the argument here is between the pro-zombie movie folks and the pro military folks. Now, regardless of who is right, the fact of the matter is that if the military is strong in fiction, it makes for a really terrible story. I mean, come on. Zombies rise, mass panic, people die, story focuses on group of people drawn together by this with all their emotional baggage, and then, 30 minutes into the movie, tanks and APCs charge in and kill all the zombies.
Realistically, I think alot of it will be chance. I mean, with alot of troops in Iraq now, thats weeks of transportation to bring them back, and depending on how the infection spreads, it could get out of hand before Nation Guard units mobilize. The initial panic would decide quite a bit.
Granted, if the Bush, Cheney, and all the high ranking DoD officials have just gotten back from their Zombie movie marathon when this breaks out, I'd imagine it would be over quickly

EDIT: Oh, and remember. World War Z and the ZSG ( i read em both) are good books, but they are FICTION. So don't assume they're the bible of Zombieness.

Only a quarter of the US troops are in Iraq. And head shot training is called a failure drill. Two shots in the body and one into the head, because bad guys wear body armor and use cover as well.

 

[Eltharon]

Regardless of how many are there, my point doesn't change. Competent military means a bad zombie movie, whether or not its realistic.

 

[TwinBahamut]

Well, I took a day or so to cool off. time to get back to the thread. It seems some people experienced with military stuff have shown up, so I will focus more on the the literary stuff.

Wait...you don't know anything about Night of the Living Dead in either incarnation? Then I submit that you're really not going to be grounded in the tropes of the subgenre we're talking about here.

Nonsense. A person can understand the basic elements of a genre without ever viewing "iconic" examples of that genre. For example, someone can be familiar with the fantasy genre without ever reading Tolkien. This is especially true because the conventions of genres are flexible and change with time.

I don't watch Zombie movies. I am not a movie fan, and zombie movies tend to be B-grade movie trash, which I can't stand. However, I am familiar enough with Zombie videogames and other pop-cultural referencs to zombies (webcomics, boardgames, etc). Honestly, I think the influence of these media on the zombie genre has vastly overtaken the influence of the movies. I think I am qualified enough to speak about zombies.

Excepting that the vast majority of zombie-oriented plots, including the Dead films and Italian knockoffs like Zombie have no plot even resembling that. Most of the time, it's ordinary people in extraordinary circumstances that's at the heart of the genre.

I covered that in the phrase "single hero". An ordinary person who manages to overcome an extraordinary obstacle is major aspect of the idea of a "hero".

Like I said - it's obvious you're not enjoying the genre discussion or the thread. I hope you find one suiting your tastes and knowledge more fully.

It is not the genre or the thread, really. It is more that I wasn't enjoying debating things with you. I would prefer it if you addressed my major points, rather than nitpick about my right to say anything and snipe insults at me.

Regardless, I think the fundamental problem I have with your argument and ideas is your constant denial that the battle against zombies is unwinnable. You are overly insistant about the notion that zombies can't be killed, and I think that such a notion flatly contradicts many aspects of the genre. Also, I think you are overly simplifying the concept of "a zombie", and are forgetting that there have been many portrayals of zombies, many of which have differing abilities and degrees of resistance to damage.

Regardless, if you take zombies out of the narrative perpsective, and examine a zombie outbreak from a realistic perspective (which I believe is the nature of this whole thread), then there are all kinds of problems with the idea of a global zombie apocalypse. It simply doesn't work.

Also, on one more issue... I think too much has been made of the slowness of a federal response. To continue the comparison to the current wildfires in Southern California, the speed of local government response is not to be underestimated. I saw the firefighters battling those wildfires with my own eyes, within hours of the fire's outbreak. Considering that the average person is better equiped to fight a zombie than a massive wildfire, I would imagine that the average zombie outbreak would be contained very quickly. Overall, I think wildfires and common diseases have greater potential for wide destruction than a zombie outbreak, if you look at things realistically.

 

[Nadaka]

Shaun of the Dead was a good zombie movie, and it had competent military response. However, they only showed up in the last what? 10 minutes of the movie? So the trick to mixing a realistic military response with a good zombie horror is to focus on the initial outbreak where the civilians just have to find a way to hold out long enough for rescue (and they might not that rescue is coming if radio and telephone goes down).

 

[Warren Okuma]

Regardless of how many are there, my point doesn't change. Competent military means a bad zombie movie, whether or not its realistic.

That I agree with.