D&D 5E Z's Multi classing Thoughts

[Zardnaar]

This will look at multiclassing in 5E and I will provide several examples of some MC builds I have seen in play and discuss a few that are more theory crafting. Some MC builds are pure powergaming, others are to enable concepts the PHB tried to do but arguably failed at such as an arcane gish. The Valor Bard, Bladelock and Eldritch Knight are a bit underwhelming IMHO and MCing can fix them. Best gish is Paladin gish.

In general the advantages of MCing are a dip for some low level class features or taking a more even spread to minimise missing out on ASI's. The drawback of a dip MC build is that you are 1 level behind things like ASI, a spellcaster level or getting a major class feature such as second attack. In general good levels to MC at are level 2,5,7 (as fighter), and 9. Sometimes missing out on an ASI/feat is fine as long as whatever you are gaining is better than a lost feat/ASI. In general classes that are martial based MC well together (eg Fighter, Ranger, Rogue) and even levels and/ore every 3 level are good for 1/3rd and 1/2 spellcasters such as Rangers, Paladins, Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters. For example if you took 6 levels of fighter as an eldritch Knight and wanted to MC into a wizard that is a great cut off point as you pick up an ASI at level 6 and it counts as 2 levels of wizard for the MC spellcaster table. Level 12 would also be another decent MC point for an Eldritch Knight into wizard as you acquire your 3rd attack (your 4th attack may as well be the moon). Giving up a 3rd attack as an MC fighter can be worth it as long as you are happy with the trade off of what you are MCing into. OMe higher level fighter, Ranger and Rogue abilities are often underwhelming so MCIng can be a very good option of them such a a Rogue 8 taking the next 5 levels of Ranger or fighter. You're not giving up much and 5 levels of hunter ranger for example can offer a lot to a Rogue such as a combat type, hunters quarry spell, and possibly 3 attacks a round (2 at ranger 5+ hordebreaker) which triples your chances of a sneak attack. You end up dealing more damage than gaining an extra 3d6 sneak attack.

Another reason to MC is to get better saving throws. Some saves in the game are not very good for example a wizard and Rogue saves are sub par IMHO. Picking up con saves can be worth a dip as well for spellcasters. Due to things such as universal proficiency modifier, ability to cast in armor you can often build an unusual MC character (or single class character) that is surprisingly good in a role you would not typically associate with it such as the Mountain Dwarf Sorcerer beatstick. The Sorlock is probably the best known example of such a build and I will look at that one below. The fighter/mage/cleric/rogue thing is a D&D staple I look at it more as warrior/artillery/support/skirmisher what classes they are matters less.

 

[Zardnaar]

The Bladelock

In the PHB a bladelock is basically a pact of the blade warlock. The main problem with it is that it has several big design flaws such as low AC, lack of con saves for keeping hex/concentration spells up and it suffers rom multiple ability dependency (MAD) as you want 14 con, 14 dex and a high strength and charisma scores. The Xanathars Guide to Everything hexblade IMHO is kind of a band aid to fix a few of those issues. Or you can splash a single fighter level and MC into warlock and have a very nasty Bladelock. The main reason to splash the fighter level is to pick up heavy armour proficiency, shield proficiency (I recommend a two handed weapon), proficiency in con saves and you also get a combat style as well. You then MC into warlock at level 2 and pick up pact of the blade and have a fiend as a aptron. Compared to a single classed fighter you are a lot more tanky due to temporary hit points gained via the fiend patron, you pick up hex for an extra d6 damage and at level 13 you can also get charisma to damage as well as strength. Additionally at range you are still a warlock so you can also double down on agonising blasts, fireballs and all the other warlock goodies. Generally though you will probably be using hex and armor of agathys a lot. THis build works great at low levels with level 2 and 5 being the only real downsides to the build and even then its not awful. Fighter1/warlock XYZ is the best arcane gish and now you can replace the fiendpact part with hexblade if you so desire. I have seen this build in real games and its very good IMHO.

The Sorlock

This build is kind of infamous on the forums as it is a one of the white room theory crafting highest DPR builds in the game at higher levels. What the boards don't seem to realise is that the build is perfectly playable from level 1 and is great from level 3 the Eldritch blast spam thing in a real game is only an option and the build switches on at level 3. Eldritch blast spam is only an option not a requirement and yes I have also seen this build at low levels in a real game, my wife tweaked it from the theory crafting builds on the forums and played it from level 1. She was also the one who put together the bladelock above. If it helps think of this build as an archer and not as a spellcaster. This build works by startin the game as a Sorcerer and MCing into the warlock at level 2 and 3 and then taking the rest of your career as a Sorcerer (usually Dragonsorcerer). The guts of the build is agonising blast and abusing quicken spell metamagic to spam Eldritch Blast and hex. Even at low levels you are dealing more damage than a dedicated archer at higher levels you are competitive with a dedicated archer using sharpshooter assuming that archer is a fighter (in play they are often hunter rangers).Put simply you can quicken EB more than a fighter can action surge and you can do it a lot from the mid levels and functionally at will at the higher levels by sacrificing your spell slots. Even without quickening EB at low levels you are dealing 1d10+charisma+ 1d6 and agonising blast and hex stack per bolt you get from Eldritch BLast and you get twice as many bolts via quickening them. At level 5 for example you can quicken EB 3/times a day by sacrificing a level 1 and 2 spel slot and still have the option of using 3 more level 1 Sorcerer spells, 1 level 2 sorcerer spell, and 6 level 1 warlock spells assuming 2 short rests. You also have 5 other cantrips to play with. Assuming some of those slots are used for hex you can easily quicken EB 7/times a long rest. At level 5 where you base damage is already better than a normal archers even a hunter ranger using hunters quarry (they need colossus slayer or hordebreaker active to to beat your DPR). Of course you do not need to spam EB all the time you still have the option of dropping a fireball or whatever (or haste, greater invisibility, fly etc). Eventually you get your 3rd and 4th EB bolts which means you can make 6 and 8 attacks a round essentially at will. This build is not a theory craft build it works in a real game and is playable from level 1 and switches on from level 3.

The Soradin

This build is mostly a theory craft build. Its playable from level 1 but doesn't really switch on until around level 10 or 12. The basic idea is to start the game as a Paladin and MC into Sorcerer at level 7 or 9 once you have your aura or 2nd ASI. For the first 6 levels you are a Paladin, the idea for the sorcerer levels is to gain higher level spell slots and more of them for smiting than what a single classed Sorcerer can pull off. If you MC hypothetically you can get 9th level spell slots at level 20. At level 14 you can get level 6 spell slots. Note that smiting does top out at 6d8 damage with a 5th level spell slot so you can't use level 6+ spells to deal more smite damage. If you MC off at level 8 you don't even really miss out on any ASI and as a Dragon sorcerer by level 12 you are really only missing out on 4 hit points. You can also use your spell slots to actually cast spells on occasion and some low level spells scale very well into the higher levels (shield, shield of faith, bless, magic weapon etc). A level 8/Paladin/Sorcerer 12 counts as a level 16 caster for spell slot purposes. If you don't mind medium armor you can also take the Sorcerer level at level 1 trading heavy armor for proficiency in constitution saves personally I would just start as Paladin. The Paladin is already more or less the best gish in the game (the MC Bladelock is competitive though). A variant is also replacing the Sorcerer levels with lore bard or warlock levels. The charisma classes MC together quite well.

Life Cleric 1/Land Druid XYZ

This one is a very simple build and switches on at level 2. Its focus is abusing the life clerics disciple of life ability with the Druids goodberry spell. Its also fun with the new Spirit of Healing spell in XGtE. The Druid levels are for the natural recovery ability which is great to get more goodberry spells. There are a variety of ways to play the class but mostly you are very ood at support hat you can use more of your spell slots to blast or whatever as Druids get better boom sells than clerics and they can pick up lightning bolt via Mountain Druid. This build can also restore more hit points than a single classed life cleric. A variant replaces the land Druid levels with Lore Bard levels but that one doesn't really switch on until level level 7 where you can steal spirit of healing. So great support role and ok blaster in one build for those of you who find life clerics a bit boring.

The Rogue.

Some people on these forums complain that Rogues do not deal enough damage and I have seen this echoed IRL as well. This is mostly because Rogues can be very mobile but that mobility comes at a price and a lot of Rogue players like doing hit and run attacks or sniping with a bow. That is fine just don't complain that you are dealing not much damage because you are being a pumpkin. If you are using your bonus action to run around not achieving much. The opportunity cost of doing that is an extra 1d6 damage from not dual wielding and cutting your odds of sneak attacking in half. If you're using a bow to do that you are often soaking up a -2 penalty for firing into melee. And that is a single classed Rogue, grow some balls and get into melee using a bow when you have to. 5E has abundant healing and you can always do the mobile skirmished thing when you are below 50% hit points. Similar reason why Greenflame Blade is not all that for Rogues either except the Mastermind. Sentinel is also a good feat for Rogues, you get uncanny dodge at level 6, and the healer feat is also good for Thieves. The way to really rap up a Rogues damage is by multiclassing. At the most basic level you can dip a level of fighter for a fighting style: two wepaon fighitng. A fighter 1/Rogue 1 dual wielding has more or less doubled their damage and chances to sneak attack over a Rogue 2 running around being semi pointless. That is the fighter dip, you can take anywhere form 1 to 12 levels of a fighter and have a great PC. You can also be a brutal rogue which takes the fighter levels and marries to to plate armor and the shield master feat and use a rapier along with skill expertise in athletics. Apart form sneaking around most Rogue skills are based off various abilities that are not dexterity. You can just knock stuff prone gaining advantage and enabling sneak via advantage. Rogue in plate armor because 5E. As I briefly mentioned in the introduction MCing out of Rogue into a Ranger is also a great option but those levels can also be fighter or Paladin levels, Barbarians not so much. The ranger levels give you an extra attack at 5th level (roughly equal to 2d6 sneak attack), the hunters quarry spells (extra 1d6), and the potential for an extra 1d8 damage via colossus slayer or an extra attack via hordebreaker so you don't need to dual wield at athat point so duelist fighting style can give you another +2 damage along with a shield. This is a good option for Masterminds who have other things to do with their bonus action such as granting advantage. Once again you are doubling or tripling your chances to sneak attack and bringing your base damage up. Fighters and Rogues (well thieves) have MCed well together since 1978. Another build courtesy of my wife. If you really want to be a ranged Rogue take the hand crossbow feat and be an assassin.

The Skill Monkey

Ever wanted to be proficient with all skills and have expertise in 6 of them and deal decent damage? This build is so cheesy fondue might be a good name for it. You need a few 13s to enable it and have a variant human with the skilled feat. The required classes are Rogue 1, Knowledge cleric 1, Lore Bard, Warlock 2 for the agonising blast and beguiling influence invocations. You want Charisma as your primary stat and after level 7 probably just level up lore bard. Its up to you what order you take the levels in but you probably want the warlock levels early on starting as a Rogue for the skills. You won't be dealing Sorlock levels of damage but you won't suck either. At this point the warlock 2 dip is semi infamous due to how cantrips scale and agonising blast. Because 5E. Fondue its a thing.

The Eldritch Knight
The EK has a few issues. It takes a long time to come online (arguably level 15) and it outclassed IMHO by the Champion and Battlemaster. Its not even as good at using Greenflame blade as you think it would be due to getting 3 attacks a round at level 11 and even casting a shield RAW is hard unless you have the warcaster feat (which does play nice with GFB). One solution is to MC into a wizar probably the abjurer probably at level 7 as you get an ASI at lvel 6 and 6 EK levels count as 2 levels of wizard on the MC spellcaster table. Level 12 is also another nice MC point but at that point this is more of a theory craft build for high level play. The level 6 MC is gigin up the 3rd fighter attack but you are gaining a lot more spell slots which can be used to upcast your lower level spells and you are proficient in con saves and if feats are used you probably want to take warcaster anyway. You do sacrifice your 3rd attack at level 11+ but you are gaining a lot more spells a lot sooner than by sticking with pure EK and there are spells like Haste and Greater Invisibility or fly all of which are arguably better than a 3rd attack anyway. You do give up some hit points but abjurers ward and spells like absorb elements and shield help out there. If I wanted to play an arcane gish I think I would look at the Bladelock or Soradin but this might be about as good as it gets for the Eldritch Knight if you want to focus a bit more on spells vs fighter levels.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Your fundamental flaw is assuming D&D is only played from a mechanical playstyle, where flavor and role-playing don't matter.

For example, a paladin is NOT the best gish if the player doesn't want their PC being a holy roller. To me, that would make a horrible gaming experience, and a much bigger problem than an extra +1 or whatever over another class build.

It's like everyone completely ignores the first page of every class description around here or something...

 

[Zardnaar]

Your fundamental flaw is assuming D&D is only played from a mechanical playstyle, where flavor and role-playing don't matter.

For example, a paladin is NOT the best gish if the player doesn't want their PC being a holy roller. To me, that would make a horrible gaming experience, and a much bigger problem than an extra +1 or whatever over another class build.

It's like everyone completely ignores the first page of every class description around here or something...

And thats why I have some other gish builds. I'm also talking from a mechanical PoV. The Paladin has not been a holy roller since 3E. Also have a look at my bladelock I just posted if you want a darker Elric like gish.

BTW I bought and printed your Depths of Felk Mor, nicely done. Looks good in print with spiral binding.

 

[Ancalagon]

I'm building a College of sword bard 6/hexblade 2. Will go up 6/3, after that not sure. Half elf, so he has a *lot* of skills. Outlander background (the party has no "nature" person), so he's essentially an arcane ranger.

The college of bard "dip" gets me a good bunch of spells, skills, maneuver dice to increase AC/damage that refresh on a short rest, and a 2nd attack. Hexblade makes him a better warrior in many ways (shield & shield, cha to attack, invocations).

I think I should get level 3, but after that am less sure. RP wise I should stick with hexblade, but I'm not sure it's technically better... bard 9/hex 3 vs 6/6...

 

[Ancalagon]

And with that I have my question. The high-ish levels, in general, are less clear to me. I like the notion of roughly even leveled multi classes, but doing so puts the power bump of level 11 effectively out of reach... So are dips the only way to go?

 

[Ogre Mage]

And with that I have my question. The high-ish levels, in general, are less clear to me. I like the notion of roughly even leveled multi classes, but doing so puts the power bump of level 11 effectively out of reach... So are dips the only way to go?

I would say that from an optimization perspective, dips are the strongest. Cleric 1 and Warlock 2 (or Hexblade 1) are very strong dip choices.

 

[Zardnaar]

And with that I have my question. The high-ish levels, in general, are less clear to me. I like the notion of roughly even leveled multi classes, but doing so puts the power bump of level 11 effectively out of reach... So are dips the only way to go?

No but it depends on how you build your PC and if what you give up from level 11 are worth the other benefits you get. For example a fighter gets a 3rd attack at level 11 but you might have a MC looking something like Fighter 6/Ranger4/Rogue4.

So you miss out on that 3rd attack but replace it with 2d6 sneak attack and hunter ranger abilities which can be an extra dice of damage or an extra attack so your trade ff is not that bad and you don't miss out on any ASI relative to most classes (single class fighter maybe).

Fighter 12/Rogue 8 works well as well sure you miss out on the 4th attack at level 20 but you get 7 levels of other stuff to make up for it. Picking up a Paladin aura for example might be worth the loss of an extra attack. I regard the warrior default as 2 attacks, 3 if your a level 11 fighter and the 4th attack at level 20 theory crafting 99% of the time. I'm not a fan of builds that come online late and expect them to be playable from level 1.

I feel I miss out if I give up a 2nd attack as a warrior unless its a sneak attack build or if I am building around Greenblame Blade abuse. Depends if dice rolling is allowed and if you roll decent stats which enable some builds more than others like a beat down Mountain Dwarf Sorcerer or a beat down arcane cleric. Some builds are a bit more MAD than others, you don't need a 20 at level 1 but 2 14s and 2 16s help a lot and are probably less powerful than a XYZ whatever with 20 at level 1 which I have seen. You can key a few things of charisma and wisdom reducing MAD.

Its not always about min/maxing the most power either sometimes its just to enable a concept the core rules doesn't work very well with such as arcane gish PCs. Hence why things like Bladesingers and Hexblades have been made I suppose. Or you like thing outside the box like a plate armor wearing Rogue that can enable sneak attacks without having to rely on other party members.

Generally (non splash MCing)

Charisma based spellcasters MC well together (Warlock, Sorcerer, Bards, Paladins)
Martial types MC well together esp Fighters, Rogues, Rangers and Paladins.
Non charisma spellcasters do not play nice together (Cleric/Wizards, Druid/Clerics, Sorcerer/Wizards and Druid/Wizards).
The 1/3rd and 1/2 casters can mix it up with primary casters

You don't need the highest damage in the world just don't crater it or trip over to many bonus actions type builds. SOme things we have found out how to do.

Keying physical attacks off wisdom and charisma.
Keying arcane spells off wisdom
Keying physical attacks off charisma without using Hexblade (via 3pp)

Paladin keying everything off charisma is kind of funny using polearm master and using a staff to do it.

 

[Eltab]

I am playing a Trickery Cleric 6 / Rogue (Arcane Trickster) 4 Forest Gnome "Bag of Tricks" in Yawning Portal. The point is to have the largest toolbox possible and dump 'molasses' on our foes while the other PCs get into position to do their shtick. Message and Expertise(Stealth) and trained(Perception) let me scout ahead; I can heal in a pinch; bowshot for ranged combat; Green-Flame Blade if I get caught in a corner. Walloping Ammunition doesn't live up to its advertising when everybody you meet is a physical powerhouse, but should be good if I meet a skirmisher. Minor Illusion lets me look like I should fit in, when I just want to get across the room and out the other side. The build is MAD though and my highest stats are two 16s.

 

[Zardnaar]

I am playing a Trickery Cleric 6 / Rogue (Arcane Trickster) 4 Forest Gnome "Bag of Tricks" in Yawning Portal. The point is to have the largest toolbox possible and dump 'molasses' on our foes while the other PCs get into position to do their shtick. Message and Expertise(Stealth) and trained(Perception) let me scout ahead; I can heal in a pinch; bowshot for ranged combat; Green-Flame Blade if I get caught in a corner. Walloping Ammunition doesn't live up to its advertising when everybody you meet is a physical powerhouse, but should be good if I meet a skirmisher. Minor Illusion lets me look like I should fit in, when I just want to get across the room and out the other side. The build is MAD though and my highest stats are two 16s.

Skill monkey build with a decent cantrip for damage+sneak attack on a skirmisher is fine IMHO.

"You don't need the highest damage in the world just don't crater it"