D&D 5E Why is There No Warlord Equivalent in 5E?

[Paul Farquhar]

I tend to use Investigation for ad hoc discernment.

You are free to use it how you like, but the rules say Perception covers cursory examinations.

 

[Yaarel]

You are free to use it how you like, but the rules say Perception covers cursory examinations.

Consider the playtest Glossary for 2024. It is trying to distinguish the Abilities more clearly from each other.

"
STUDY [ACTION]

When you take the Study action, you make an Intelligence check to study your memory, a book, a creature, a clue, an object, or another source of knowledge and call to mind an important piece
of information about it.

The Areas of Knowledge table suggests which skills are applicable when you take this action,
depending on the area of knowledge the Intelligence check is about.

"

The "knowledge" of Intelligence can come from anywhere, including an intuitive grasp to discern surprising details.


By contrast ...



"
SEARCH [ACTION]

When you take the Search action, you make a Wisdom check to discern something that isn’t obvious. The Search table suggests which skills are applicable when you take this action, depending on what you’re trying to detect.

Insight Creature’s state of mind
Medicine Creature’s ailment
Perception Concealed creature or object
Survival Tracks or food

"

The Perception skill is only for "detecting" something "concealed". Thats it. Nothing else.

But in a D&D game, noticing something hidden is a big deal.


I feel strongly, Insight (= Empathy) belongs with Charisma as a necessary social skill. It is impossible to be Charismatic without understanding and reading people. Medicine to diagnose someones illness is so obviously an Intelligence check − but whatever. Maybe the idea is looking for subtle symptoms that most usually dont notice.

Detecting animal tracks is noticing easily missed sensory perceptions, including faint scents, broken leaves, and having the skill itself means the character is familiar with what to look for.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

My assumption is, those four places mean, additional choices for an Invocation, that then can be a high slot spell or a different, equally powerful, feature if the player prefers.

Nope. The Playtest 5 table specifies exactly how many you get; it says "Eldritch Invocation(s)" each time you get one. The explanatory text box also explicitly says, emphasis in original, "Eldritch Invocations now caps out at nine invocations instead of eight."

So...yeah. It was straight-up a huge nerf. Just to keep up with where the Warlock had already been, you'd have to spend the one "new" Invocation you got, and three more, leaving you with only five to play with. Thankfully, as noted, they actually listened and completely reverted these terrible, bizarre, unwarranted nerfs. In fact, the Playtest 7 Warlock is one of the few things that actually manages to excite me about 5e in general. I'm playing one right now and, other than really feeling the limit of only 2 spells per short rest, I'm definitely enjoying it.

In any case, it is probably better for the Warlord to avoid "daily" powers, but to access powers that are as effective and gamechanging as high slot spells are.

Right. That's why I have struggled so much with the "what would fill the mechanical space that Mystic Arcana takes up in the Warlock budget?" My idea was that the Gambit resource is a build-up sort of thing, so it can't just be unleashed at any moment, but when it does, it's really quite impressive, the culmination of long practice and a zillion little manipulations to generate an impressive result.

For the level 17 power, the Warlord needs to be able to do something as amazing as Wish.

Well. Even I think that's maybe an excessive standard (mostly because I don't think wish should be a player-learnable spell). But it does need to be comparable to something like time stop or gate, which are both very powerful, but not world-altering powerful.

 

[Yaarel]

Well. Even I think that's maybe an excessive standard (mostly because I don't think wish should be a player-learnable spell). But it does need to be comparable to something like time stop or gate, which are both very powerful, but not world-altering powerful.

Honestly, I am ok with Wish being an Epic tier spell. But if the Wizard gets it at level 17, then all the classes need the equivalent for the sake of balance. And the nature of Wish needs to be on the spell list of almost every caster. Cleric performs "miracle", Bard sings the songs of creation, Druids assemble the forces of reality, Psions achieve mind over matter, etcetera, every mage has some method to fulfill a Wish.

Spells are world-altering. The main reason the Fighter sucks at high tiers is because it lacks a way to assert narrative control over the world, outside of combat. It is actually extremely powerful in combat. It is the noncombat capabilities that are subpar and unbalanced.

The Warlord can potentially marshal massive armies, achieve world-altering civil engineering projects, enlist thousands of scholars and mages to accomplish some research project. There are so many ways a high-tier Warlord can alter the world. Some things can be done in a day.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

Now I am thinking if the future warmage should be short-rest like warlock, or reloading like the martial adepts.

Maybe D&D Beyond should open in the forum something style Unearthed Arcana Classes playtests, and with polls about what design is more popular.

 

[Minigiant]

I feel strongly, Insight (= Empathy) belongs with Charisma as a necessary social skill. It is impossible to be Charismatic without understanding and reading people. Medicine to diagnose someones illness is so obviously an Intelligence check − but whatever. Maybe the idea is looking for subtle symptoms that most usually dont notice

Charisma is the OPPOSITE of empathy.

Think of it this way

Info in= Wisdom
Info Processing and Recovery = Intelligence
Info Out= Charisma

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Now I am thinking if the future warmage should be short-rest like warlock, or reloading like the martial adepts.

Maybe D&D Beyond should open in the forum something style Unearthed Arcana Classes playtests, and with polls about what design is more popular.

Soliciting useful input and feedback from actual users would be a wonderful thing.

It might negatively impact the rate at which I post on ENWorld though

 

[Yaarel]

Charisma is the OPPOSITE of empathy.

Think of it this way

Info in= Wisdom
Info Processing and Recovery = Intelligence
Info Out= Charisma

Charisma MUST have empathy. Even psychopaths need to be able to read people in order to be charismatic.

Insight is a social skill. Charisma is the go-to Ability for all ones social skill needs.


The 5e Abilities divide things up in idiotic ways that make no sense, or are redundant with each other, and make the game painful.

5e Abilities need help.

 

[Yaarel]

Maybe D&D Beyond should open in the forum something style Unearthed Arcana Classes playtests, and with polls about what design is more popular.

DMs Guild is kinda this.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Charisma is the OPPOSITE of empathy.

Think of it this way

Info in= Wisdom
Info Processing and Recovery = Intelligence
Info Out= Charisma

Personally, I don't think any of the mental stats actually encompass true empathy.

People with psychopathic personalities ("cold" Antisocial Personality Disorder, which usually implies high-functioning) are pretty much defined by a lack of empathy. They are also some of the most charismatic people around. A lack of empathy seems to actually make manipulating others easier, not harder, probably because not feeling or caring about emotions oneself, the emotions of others become just a lark, a fancy, something as easily tossed aside as a random flower, idly picked.

Emotional perception is defined to be part of Wisdom, yes. But being able to see that someone is having an emotion, and actually having empathy for the emotions they feel, are two extremely different things.