E6 (E10?) in Fourth Edition

[Dausuul]

So, back in 3E, a version of the game known as E6 sprang up. Details are here, but the basic conceit was that you would level up to 6 normally, then remain at 6th level for the rest of your career. Every so often you'd get a new feat, but you wouldn't continue up the normal 3E power curve into high-level wackiness.

The goal was to create a consistent play experience in the "low heroic" level range, and preserve a sense of advancement (new feats) while avoiding the headaches of high-level campaigns. It sounded very interesting, but I've never had occasion to try it out.

What I like most is the consistent play aspect - regular orc grunts can continue to be a threat throughout the game. It means the DM doesn't have to keep coming up with newer, bigger villain factions, and it also allows the players to develop a sense of scale. You look at a bunch of orcs, and you have a decent idea whether or not you can take them, because you've fought orcs before and your power level has not changed drastically since then.

Anyway, a friend of mine and I were talking at lunch today, and he mentioned that if he starts a new 4E campaign soon, it will be strictly Heroic tier. I agreed that Heroic tier seems to work better (at least for me) than Paragon or Epic. And, as mentioned above, I really like the idea of a consistent power level instead of the ever-increasing curve. So I got to thinking about what E6 would look like in 4E... or E10, more likely; get to the top of Heroic tier and stop there.

What does everyone think? Would it work? What do you think would be required to keep the feeling of advancement without substantially increasing character power past level 10? Is it enough to just hand out a new feat every so often, or would you give out powers as well?

(Oh, incidentally, I'm not interested in talking about my issues with Paragon and Epic. I'm sure I could hammer out fixes for them if I wanted, but the reason I started thinking about E6/E10 was the realization that I don't really want Paragon or Epic tier--I don't like having the power level of the campaign climb into the stratosphere.)

[TerraDave]

I guess the whole idea of 4E was to spread that sweet spot over 30 levels, so you don't need something like this.

Clearly, you disagree.

One problem is that feats in 4E just aren't what they where in 3E. And for powers, I could see slowly sapping through those, but you would really need to be carefull with the math. Might just be easier to start a new campaign after level 10.

One other issue for this is that in defualt 4E, the monsters are also stretched over more levels. You don't have all those 1hd humaniods like 3E did. Of course, monsters are relatively easy to customize, so with some work you could deal with that.

[Umbran]

I don't think 4e gets quite as complicated as 3e was for the higher levels, so I think the system has less call for the variant.

That being said, I don't see a reason why this cannot work. You have to be a little careful - in 3e, feats were a major source of richness of character development, while in 4e they mean rather less (powers are more in the forefront). And around level 10 is probably a natural cutoff point for the system.

Personally, though, I'd more suggest an approach that requires very little mechanical change - slow down XP progression somewhat, and simply end your campaigns when they get up around level 10, and start anew.

[Celebrim]

You could continue the feat progression and powers progression, but limit powers taken to level 10 or less. Hit dice, base attack, base defences, skills and abilities would cap at 10th level. 'Epic' characters would grow in flexibility, but not signficantly in power.

[Dausuul]

Originally Posted by TerraDave

I guess the whole idea of 4E was to spread that sweet spot over 30 levels, so you don't need something like this.

Clearly, you disagree.

Mmm... well, I do feel that 4E's "30-level sweet spot" is sweeter in some places than others, but that's really beside the point. Even if the system worked perfectly at all levels, I'd still be interested in this.

The main reason I want to try E10 instead of fixing my problems with the higher levels is the realization that I simply don't want the PCs' power level to keep climbing beyond a certain point. That has nothing to do with the mechanical "sweet spot" and everything to do with the style of campaign I like to run.

Originally Posted by TerraDave

One problem is that feats in 4E just aren't what they where in 3E.

In what sense? Granted, they don't provide the kind of raw power that 3E feets sometimes did, but raw power isn't the goal here. And this would be a nice opportunity for players to pick up the "sub-optimal" feats (Linguist, Jack of All Trades, a lot of the Channel Divinity feats) that are normally scorned in favor of more reliably useful ones.

Originally Posted by TerraDave

One other issue for this is that in defualt 4E, the monsters are also stretched over more levels. You don't have all those 1hd humaniods like 3E did. Of course, monsters are relatively easy to customize, so with some work you could deal with that.

True, but the power curve is shallower. In terms of monster power, a 4-level difference in 4E is roughly equivalent to a 2-CR difference in 3E.

[Fanaelialae]

I think it's feasible.

Gaining additional powers, in addition to feats, would certainly be more interesting than merely gaining feats. 4e feats aren't as potent as those in 3e, so only granting feats would slow progression to a snail's pace (begging the question as to whether there's much point to continued progression).

As PCs progress "beyond" level 10, rather than using higher level enemies, you should use an increasing number of level 10ish creatures.

[Nifft]

Originally Posted by TerraDave

I guess the whole idea of 4E was to spread that sweet spot over 30 levels, so you don't need something like this.

Bingo.

IMHO if you wanted to "fix" a Heroic-only game to allow for some additional advancement, you could allow more magic item uses per day, you could grant a few more Utility powers (up to a maximum of 6), and you could grant a few extra Feats. You could grant an additional At-Will power eventually.

Still, there will be a ceiling. You'll just have pushed it a bit further out.

How much longer than regular Heroic tier do you want to play? Why not just cut XP advancement in half, and play regular Heroic tier for your whole career?

Cheers, -- N

[Votan]

Originally Posted by Umbran

Personally, though, I'd more suggest an approach that requires very little mechanical change - slow down XP progression somewhat, and simply end your campaigns when they get up around level 10, and start anew.

Or one could play for extended periods at level 10 without actually leveling up. Gaining levels is nice but not essential to play if there are in game objectives.

When I played AD&D we stayed at relatively constant levels for very long periods of time. This slow progression was not a problem so long as there was an objective at the end based on the plot or the goals of the characters.

[Dausuul]

Originally Posted by Celebrim

You could continue the feat progression and powers progression, but limit powers taken to level 10 or less. Hit dice, base attack, base defences, skills and abilities would cap at 10th level. 'Epic' characters would grow in flexibility, but not signficantly in power.

That seems workable... trying a little back-of-the-envelope calculation to see what the results look like in combat.

At 10th level, a 4E PC has:

2 at-will attack powers (dealing ~1x damage)
3 encounter attack powers (dealing ~2x damage)
3 daily attack powers (dealing ~3x damage)

Let's say 10 rounds per combat, 3 combats per day. So, each combat, each PC would deal ~15x damage (six at-wills, plus three encounters, plus one daily).

Suppose we add 3 more encounter powers and 3 more dailies. Then each PC would deal ~20x damage (two at-wills, plus six encounters, plus two dailies).

Another 3 and 3, and we get each PC dealing ~23x damage (seven encounters, plus three dailies).

If the progression continues forever, the top end is at 30x damage, when you have enough dailies to use nothing but. Of course it's highly unlikely the campaign would run anywhere near that long.

Double damage is equivalent to gaining somewhere between 2 and 3 levels, which is pretty comparable to the original E6's calculation that the party's effective level will approach 8 as they accumulate more feats. So in theory, this ought to work pretty well.

[Dausuul]

Originally Posted by Umbran

Personally, though, I'd more suggest an approach that requires very little mechanical change - slow down XP progression somewhat, and simply end your campaigns when they get up around level 10, and start anew.

Originally Posted by Nifft

Why not just cut XP advancement in half, and play regular Heroic tier for your whole career?

Originally Posted by Votan

Or one could play for extended periods at level 10 without actually leveling up. Gaining levels is nice but not essential to play if there are in game objectives.

This is a point that the designers of E6 addressed - yes, it can be done, but it's more fun for the players if they can see their characters grow and diversify and have the game mechanics reflect that.

Also, I like the fact that this would give the players more room to try out feats and powers they'd otherwise pass over in favor of more powerful options.

[Umbran]

Originally Posted by Votan

Or one could play for extended periods at level 10 without actually leveling up. Gaining levels is nice but not essential to play if there are in game objectives.

That is true for some, sure. I think, though, that the general design of games people play for extended periods shows that advancement is rather more important than you imply here.

[RangerWickett]

So Dausuul, what's the main reason you want to stop at 10th? Even though you said you didn't want to get into it, it would help to know what aspects of paragon and epic play you dislike, so we can figure out how best to avoid them.

Do you just want to avoid the teleporting, raising of the dead, powerful divinations, and over-the-top powers like flying and such? Would you ever want to use monsters like hydras, mind flayers, and huge dragons?

[Nightson]

Also, you might allow PCs additional power options without additional uses. So they could have two level seven encounter powers but only be able to use one of them in a fight.

[RangerWickett]

If I were going to do something like this for my own campaign, I would take inspiration from the game that is currently eating up my friends' time: Modern Warfare 2. In there you have to level up to get access to new equipment, and you have to perform certain accomplishments to unlock modifications to that equipment.

Like, you might get a nifty new machine gun at level 4, but if you want a red dot sight, you've got to kill 10 people first. Then if you kill 50 more people with the red dot sight attached, you'll unlock the thermal sight. If you get 50 kills with bullet penetration (as in, your target's behind flimsy cover and you shoot through the cover to hit him), you unlock extended ammo clips, and so on.

I wouldn't do it quite the same way, but I'd go for the same general idea of "let the player know there are things he can get access to if he takes the right actions."

For instance, tell the players that in every "region" of the world, you're going to include at least one martial exploit, one arcane spell, one divine prayer, and so on. The PCs can learn their own powers as normal as they level up, up to level 10, but they can also get bonus powers if they track down teachers, study under them for at least (insert timeline here), and pay some amount of XP.

So when they get to the ogre village, they might be able to learn the new ranger "chuck and charge" at-will from the ogre warchief, or pick up a warlock daily from the ogre who formed a pact with a demon, or learn an invoker utility from the woman who's leading a slave revolt. Any player could learn any of these abilities, so the fighter might pick up a holy power, or the wizard might learn to throw his orb implement like a shotput.

It would require just a bit of work, but I think it would make the game fun, because the PCs would be on the lookout for new 'unlockables.'

[Nifft]

Originally Posted by Dausuul

This is a point that the designers of E6 addressed - yes, it can be done, but it's more fun for the players if they can see their characters grow and diversify and have the game mechanics reflect that.

The thing about 3.x, though, is that for a Fighter-type, your gear + your feats are your powers. They're what you can do each and every round. You don't (usually) run out of them, and if you get more, you can use all of them at once.

For a Wizard-type, your collected XP is (the hard part of) your magic item budget. There's no restrictions on how many Scrolls you can throw down during an encounter. You can run out of them, but what happens as you not-level advance is that you end up with a small store of "free" daily spells, plus a huge library of relatively expensive ones.

You can't easily replicate either of those with 4e, because in 4e every repeatable cool trick is siloed into a Power, and you have strict limits on Power use.

Again, I ask: how much farther than 10th do you want your game to go? 4e has a ceiling. You may be able to adjust that ceiling, but it's still going to be there.

Cheers, -- N